Metrics for gun violence statistics

[RX-79G]

Whoa there! The problem with our system is that we are throwing criminals in jail? Uh, nope. That ain't gonna fly past my radar. If someone does the crime, then they're going to do the time. Period. Your weak suggestion is being tried elsewhere (e.g., New York, Los Angeles) and the results are proving to be an unmitigated disaster in real time. It is a loser suggestion that we mollycoddle criminals and certainly not something I'd ever vote for.

I didn't make a suggestion. I pointed out that the statistics being used in THIS thread say that the people aren't violent until they have gone to prison.

Combine that with the fact that we send more people to prison than any other nation and there aren't a lot of other conclusions to make, unless you want to start having life sentences or the death penalty for non-violent offenses.

"Do the crime..." philosophies are understandable, but there is such a thing as shooting yourself in the foot on principle.

So what will it be?
1. Never let non-violent felons out of prison, so they can't become violent felons.
2. Change the justice system to resemble that of countries with lower violence.
3. Accept the violence as a product of system.
4. Make life hard on everyone (gun bans) because of the need to stop previously incarcerated non-violent felons from moving on to violent crime.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm saying this is where these stats put us. What'll it be?

 

[Rkangel]

Problems start long before a criminal's first arrest.

Destruction of the family.
Destruction of morality.
Destruction of faith.
Destruction of personal responsibility and accountability.
If it feels good, do it. ....
All have destroyed the moral compass and seared the conscience. The failed criminal justice system is a symptom of the problem. Statistics are used and manipulated to continue to "justify" the failed policies of the status quo.

Option 5
Put the fear into criminals instead of the victims. Let the people have the means to defend themselves. Make the consequences of crime truly consequences instead of a slap on the wrist, three squares, a bed, and exposure to other career criminals that help new criminals improve their craft.

 

[RX-79G]

Option 5
Put the fear into criminals instead of the victims. Let the people have the means to defend themselves. Make the consequences of crime truly consequences instead of a slap on the wrist, three squares, a bed, and exposure to other career criminals that help new criminals improve their craft.

This assumes that people living in really crummy circumstances find the possibility of being caught probable and much worse than their life so far. Overall, there is no data that suggests that even the death penalty scares criminals.

And we already have people in prison for life after 3 strikes of petty crime. If that draconian formula isn't "consequences", not much is.

 

[po18guy]

As to "Gun violence" often involving plain folks who know each other, here is a prime example of those "plain folks"

Drug use often (for argument: not always) indicates a life in disorder, and a life out of control. No? Ask any rock star. The 'compassionate' rush to legalize drugs follows the law of unintended consequences. As it turns out, unless you give the drugs away, there will be even more assault and murder to obtain them.

Knowledge of human nature, and not wishful thinking, should drive personal and political decision-making.

 

[RX-79G]

As to "Gun violence" often involving plain folks who know each other, here is a prime example of those "plain folks"

Who mentioned "plain folks"?

Do you think alcohol should be banned as an addictive drug often connected to violence and death?

 

[Koda]

So what will it be?
1. Never let non-violent felons out of prison, so they can't become violent felons.
2. Change the justice system to resemble that of countries with lower violence.
3. Accept the violence as a product of system.
4. Make life hard on everyone (gun bans) because of the need to stop previously incarcerated non-violent felons from moving on to violent crime.

I'm not certain these are the only options, but to clarify my opinion I'm ok with letting non-violent offenders out of jail when their time is up. Id also be ok with programs that clear their record to remove the stigma if they serve their time that way they can have a chance at getting a job and putting their life together.
I only care about violent criminals, once that line is cross keep them locked up for life.

 

[RX-79G]

I'm not certain these are the only options, but to clarify my opinion I'm ok with letting non-violent offenders out of jail when their time is up. Id also be ok with programs that clear their record to remove the stigma if they serve their time that way they can have a chance at getting a job and putting their life together.
I only care about violent criminals, once that line is cross keep them locked up for life.

But the stat you posted suggests that 90% of violent criminals were created out of non-violent ones by sending them to prison.

 

[Koda]

But the stat you posted suggests that 90% of violent criminals were created out of non-violent ones by sending them to prison.

I didnt post that stat though I agreed that most violent offenders are repeat offenders.

 

[ma96782]

Aloha, Mark

PS....give me a couple of million dollars and I can do a study and come up with some statistics too while I'm at it. The final outcome will/could depend on how much "extra" you're willing to pay me.

Yeah.....imagine that. The CDC studying the "Gun Violence Issue"? ROFLMAO.

 

[mhayd93]

But the stat you posted suggests that 90% of violent criminals were created out of non-violent ones by sending them to prison.

Since you are just running around seemingly every thread immediately disagreeing with whatever is being talked about, let me offer a personal observation I have made about your posts:

You try to pass yourself off as some sort of statistics guru/legal expert and imply that other people are misrepresenting facts, yet you yourself provide basically zero actual evidence to prove what you are saying.

Nothing wrong with differing opinions, but your rabid Contrarianism tends to just lead to circular arguments (which seems to be your goal) rather than actual solutions-based discussion or appreciation of the opposing viewpoints.

 

[RX-79G]

Since you are just running around seemingly every thread immediately disagreeing with whatever is being talked about, let me offer a personal observation I have made about your posts:

You try to pass yourself off as some sort of statistics guru/legal expert and imply that other people are misrepresenting facts, yet you yourself provide basically zero actual evidence to prove what you are saying.

Nothing wrong with differing opinions, but your rabid Contrarianism tends to just lead to circular arguments (which seems to be your goal) rather than actual solutions-based discussion or appreciation of the opposing viewpoints.

What would you like to do with your personal observation?

I'm not a contrarian in general. It just seems like that when I travel to a place where people are used to crushing dissent and enforcing local political correctness. But I'm not really sharing anything particularly radical, I'm just sharing it on a site unused to more than a few narrow viewpoints.

I have made no claims about my expertise, BTW. Usually I use real examples and illustrate the same thought process anyone else can if they are starting with the same claims. If I point out that a law says X, it is because I am quoting what it says. Not making some big legal interpretation.

 

[Knobgoblin]

 

[USMC1911]

This assumes that people living in really crummy circumstances find the possibility of being caught probable and much worse than their life so far. Overall, there is no data that suggests that even the death penalty scares criminals.

And we already have people in prison for life after 3 strikes of petty crime. If that draconian formula isn't "consequences", not much is.

Jail and prison should be much more harsh. Unfortunately the incarcerated are catered to in a fashion that make jail/prison a status symbol instead of the stigma and incredibly degrading experience it should be.

Hard to believe nobody has called out the segment of society that is responsible for well over 50% of the murder but is a rather small statistical percentage of the US population at around 13%.

 

[Xaevian]

Hard to believe nobody has called out the segment of society that is responsible for well over 50% of the murder but is a rather small statistical percentage of the US population at around 13%.

Because it is a red herring. 70% of all murderers are male. Should we just imprison all males at birth? There are many factors in why crime happens. Cultural factors aren't really one of them, but as humans are generally simple- minded and visual creatures it is a convenient excuse.

 

[mhayd93]

Because it is a red herring. 70% of all murderers are male. Should we just imprison all males at birth? There are many factors in why crime happens. Cultural factors aren't really one of them, but as humans are generally simple- minded and visual creatures it is a convenient excuse.

Cultural factors are definitely worth consideration; this explains why you are much more likely to see "honor killings" in the Middle East than you are in the United States (such as a recent case in Iran where a man was walking around town with the head of his wife that he cut off).

 

[USMC1911]

Because it is a red herring. 70% of all murderers are male. Should we just imprison all males at birth? There are many factors in why crime happens. Cultural factors aren't really one of them, but as humans are generally simple- minded and visual creatures it is a convenient excuse.

Cultural factors are not a reason? Really? Then please explain why blacks murder at an incredable rate over other races? Cultural differences are definitely part of it. Are gangs a cultural thing? Is rap that glorifies murder, gangs and prison predominantly part of black culture? Acting like culture is not at least a part of the equation is pretty short sighted imo.

 

[Hueco]

What would happen if the gun rights community called out 3 things from the "gun violence" statistics. 1) the number of violent crimes committed with guns by criminals already prohibited 2) the number of "gun violence" crimes committed by offenders previously convicted of violent crimes who were released from custody 3) suicide with a gun is not "gun violence".
?

edit, to clarify Im asking what would happen to the numbers in the statistics collected by the anti gunners, what would the actual true count be of violent crimes where a gun was used if we removed 1) prohibited people 2) violent criminals released 3) suicides.

You might find that the number of murders committed by non-felons high enough that the numbers are still uncomfortable compared to all the murders with all weapons in most European countries.

People have been killing each other with guns a long time. But, think back...when did Moms Demand Action form? Right after Sandyhook.

Suburban white moms don't care if 5 year old Jamal is killed in drive-by crossfire. They do care that little Suzy is being slaughtered at her elementary school.

It's the randomness and the unknown that truly terrifies people. Live in a crap neighborhood? At least you know that and you can prepare, best as you can, for what might come. In an abusive relationship? Sure, it's sad the family was killed in a murder suicide by the unhinged father but *my* family is good.

But, how can you prepare for random violence? And, it's been snowballing...



The overall violence rate could be going down year after year and it wouldn't matter - as long as the instances of random violence keep going up, this will continue to be a problem.

What you are thinking is the problem, is not the problem.

Yes, adding your data points to gun violence stats would be helpful for getting a better idea of the situation. But it's only a sliver of the overall murders that are driving such devoted actions.

Question for you: Are you interested in actually having a conversation or acting like a smug gun owner with a superiority complex?

That's a serious question - because if you want to beat someone over the head with stats and help them cement their own view, then sure, keep going down the stat path. But if you want to change minds...you have to understand the problem as the other person sees it.

 

[ma96782]

Aloha, Mark

 

[RX-79G]

Cultural factors are not a reason? Really? Then please explain why blacks murder at an incredable rate over other races? Cultural differences are definitely part of it. Are gangs a cultural thing? Is rap that glorifies murder, gangs and prison predominantly part of black culture? Acting like culture is not at least a part of the equation is pretty short sighted imo.

The culture of poverty. Poor blacks kill about as much as poor whites, it's just that the vast majority of blacks in the US are poor and whites are not.

Who made black people poor? Whites, and an insanely evil culture of slavery, segregation, lynchings and nasty racist internet posts like yours.

 

[RX-79G]

Cultural factors are definitely worth consideration; this explains why you are much more likely to see "honor killings" in the Middle East than you are in the United States (such as a recent case in Iran where a man was walking around town with the head of his wife that he cut off).

So you're saying that more women are killed by their spouses in the Middle East than in the US, or that in the US the wife murderers have the decency to try and hide their crime?