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Maybe the NRA was right after all, huh?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Dave Workman, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Spokane schools revelation affirms NRA recommendation

    Eight months after National Rifle Association chief Wayne LaPierre was excoriated in the media for proposing armed security officers in public schools as a response to the Sandy Hook shooting, the Spokane Spokesman-Review revealed Wednesday that schools in that city could have armed staff by January.

    Spokane schools revelation affirms NRA recommendation - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com


    :bluelaugh: :thumbup: :laugh:
     
  2. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    I wouldn't say putting armed security in schools is right, I would agree that is becoming a necessary measure, in leu of the difficulty in controlling illegal firearms and firearms owned by those not who should be/are deemed unfit to own them. This would also need the staff or security to be 100% effective, and taking into account the damage an inexperienced shooter could do while in a state of panic and kids running everywhere.
     
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  3. duane black

    duane black Washington Well-Known Member

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    If putting armed security isn't right, how would you solve this issue ?
     
  4. Dave Workman

    Dave Workman Western Washington Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    My observations aren't on the rightness or wrongness of putting armed guards in the schools, but on the blatant HYPOCRISY this suggests. When it was NRA's idea, it stunk. Now that it's the idea of some "progressive" school official, it's just peachy.

    Thanks for reading.

    What about the rest of yous guys??
     
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  5. 2Wheels4Ever

    2Wheels4Ever Central Oregon Well-Known Member 2015 Volunteer

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    While I agree that equipping guns in untrained hands is not the ideal solution, as a teacher I wish that more people would be open to the idea of teachers carrying while on the job. Not that we need to force guns on people who do not want to, but those of us who do have proper training and years of experience, it would be beneficial to most if a few properly trained faculty members carried guns.
     
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  6. duane black

    duane black Washington Well-Known Member

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    I have yet to see a better solution and have agreed with Wayne since I watched him speak of this program live. I have seen much criticism with no real solutions offered from the opposing side.

    I believe it's a sad set of affairs when a kindergarten teacher in america has to shield 5-6 year old children from a gunmen and give her own life. If anybody here is a father or has a child this age I am sure they can share with me the horrific emotions this brings. My daughter will be starting kindergarten in 4 weeks, it almost makes my eyes sweat thinking about sandy hook. I would gladly trade places with any or all of those kids. My daughter has to sleep with a teddy bear and fall asleep with the lights on.

    Executed in school. What the bubblegum have we become ?

    I believe if anybody at the school was armed they could have had a better chance , then they did.

    School facilities should be hardened and treated like some of the most secure facilities in our society. Sad but this is the world we now live in.

    ETA :

    To answer your question about the hypocrisy Dave... I guess I feel it's better late than never. At least something is being done.
     
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  7. Trailboss

    Trailboss Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    We have armed guards watching our money, but we leave our children un-defended. Silly. We need to protect our children and this is a good first step.
     
  8. Oklahomie

    Oklahomie Marysville Active Member

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    I had security in my high school back home. He was the coolest guy in the world, and on the down time he would sit in on detention or in a classroom when the teachers needed to get something.
     
  9. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    What (in your view) is an illegal firearm?
    Who judges "unfit to own"?
    How shall "100% effective" be measured?
    Who qualifies "years of experience"?
    How will a state of panic be avoided?
    What does "the ideal solution" look like?
    What is "proper training"?

    (removed offensive line)
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
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  10. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim West of Oly Springer Slayer 2016 Volunteer

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    I see the dilemma of keeping children safe in schools being:
    A) Political (Dems. NO & Reps. YES)
    B) Right vs. Wrong
    C) Good vs. Evil
    Dems hate guns either way, UNLESS only cops, military or body guards have them. They will fight tooth and nail to not let teachers have guns in the classroom, just like on planes, according to Dems, pilots and teachers are not qualified and cannot be trusted to protect American citizens. The hypocrisy is that these people are right in the thick of it when some crazy wacko comes a knockin and wants to do harm in the classroom or in the air. Who better to take charge and handle the situation? I just wish that one day in the future that elected officials might actually use some common sense in situations such as these.
     
  11. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    Strangely before all these school shooters, we use to take our guns to school and put them in our locker to go and hunt after school let out. Rifles, shotguns, depending on the season. Schools also had shooting teams and competition.
    Never an accident or any school shootings. Times are sure screwed up now.

    _______________________________
    At my age I shoot forward a lot better than I run backward.
    Rearward movement is only used for a forward Advantage and better sight alignment !
     
  12. Cougfan2

    Cougfan2 Hillsboro, OR Well-Known Member

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    Amen. This probably dates me, but I remember taking my .22lr rifle to one of my Jr High classes to give a talk on gun safety. The principle just told me to put it in my locker when I wasn't in class with it. NO ONE FREAKED OUT!
     
  13. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    An illegal firearm is just that, class 3, converted to fully automatic, and one purchased illegally across state lines. A person unfit to own a firearm would be a person who has been determined mentally ill or a felon etc. As far as I'm aware the law deems a felon unfit to own a firearm, as far as the mentally ill goes, the VA are the only body I know of who do that.
    LEO and trained military professionals are not impervious to panic, accidents, friendly fire, etc (they are all human beings). The average civilian who shoots at paper targets or hunts, or a security guard who have most likely never been in an armed confrontation before are going not going to react with 100% effectiveness, regardless of who they are, who they think they are and how much they practice.
    After 12 years in the military I went to teach high school, and found that most kids were in their own heads during any kind of emergency drill, staff have to corral the stray ones, count them, etc. Add to that an unidentified student on a rampage, a teacher with a gun trying to protect their students (or worst case scenario trying to be a hero) quite possibly resulting in a teacher shooting an innocent person. I consider a properly trained person to be someone who does that kind of work for a living, and is experienced at it.

    I believe a better option would be to allocate Police Officers to schools, they are already trained, armed and this would also create a few more jobs nationwide. No offense intended to anyone on the board who is a security guard, but I've seen plenty of them who are less than capable or professional.
     
  14. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    The only danger I see from politics in our schools is a piss poor education system crippled by politicians from the Left and Right, and a no child left behind program, that actually leaves every child behind by providing low quality education. My father in law is a Midwestern farmer, who's also a Dem and he has more guns than anyone I know, he loves guns, and all things military and American as does my sister in law, her husband my gay brother in law and me. Stereotyping people ruins all our fun and games and divides people who ought to be united in a common cause that is in favor of us all.
     
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  15. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    Armed security is one thing, armed teacher are another. Someone who provides security for a living, ought to be professional enough to react correctly. An armed teacher with sometime at a range and some training by the local LEO (if they're lucky) are completely different animals. I served 12 years, and tough high school controlling children in that kind of situation can and most likely will lead to mistakes being made.
     
  16. duane black

    duane black Washington Well-Known Member

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    I spent quite a bit of time at the Optimists Club in San Leandro California shooting at paper targets prior to the birth of my 4 year old. When I say quite a bit of time, I'm talking at least 1 day a week, (usually 2) for about two years. I reloaded and both my wife and I had very good incomes allowing me to send lots of lead down range.

    Being in a very close proximity to Oakland California, we had alot of OPD officers shooting at the range. I never did figure out why but we also had alot of CHP guys shooting at the range. I was later told this was the unit that performed checks on the highway to make sure professional truck drivers vehicles and log books were up to snuff.

    I would say over the 2 years I very conservatively watched 150+ law enforcement officers shoot at the range. I can honestly say without any question, NONE of them could shoot a handgun better than I. I am not saying this to boast. My wife was also a witness to this and she was appalled. She kinda joked that in a hostage situation she hoped I was around, not them. My wife is NOT a gun person.

    Most LEO only shoot their weapons for qualification, period. Most are not even gun people. Take a look at some of the recent shootings where magazines were emptied only scoring 1 or 2 hits.

    I am not a LEO hater. I was once having a convo sitting on the couch with my uncle whom is currently a sacto co deputy sheriff. He made a joke to me that the last time he shot his sig was at qualification and he hadn't even cleaned it since. My father whom was also a sacto county deputy sheriff also has less than steller hand gunning skills. Sorry dad... This is not some underfunded po-dunk department. This is the county sheriff department where the captiol resides

    Don't think for a second that the popo are any more " professional " than you are I.

    ( yes I understand they have been to training ).

    So have I, and so can you.

    Just my .02 and I think both of us agree someone with a gun needs to be there. If it's a teacher that has been through some basic hangun training and maybe a CQB course tailored for their enviroment, fine by me. If it's johnny law, OK by me as well.


    ETA

    I also believe it is going to require more than armed people at schools, whoever they are. We need to change the mentality of the staff, and public in general. We all know that a airport is a hardened target for bad guys. Schools need to be as well.

    When I hand my child over to you as a teacher, I fully expect you to be able to provide a safe environment for my child. If this is something you don't have the stomach for, or are unable to do for whatever reason I want someone and someplace that can.

    I wish this wasn't an issue, I really do. Obviously it is. BTW I am not directing the ETA comment directly to you renfield, just the establishment.
     
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  17. joshp3

    joshp3 molalla Member

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    I live in a small oregon town (10k population) and when i was in highschool they did just as was mentioned earlier. The city appointed an officer to be at the highschool daily. He was not in one place all day, he interacted well with everyone, didnt attempt to butt in to the schools administration or rule enforcement process. They started this when i was a sophmore (2001)...and by the time i was a senior i couldnt have cared any less about him being there. Was at times a bit of a distraction but only due to curiosity from teenage kids, as you can imagine that would be a part of it anywhere. I think it would be a good idea in any school. Assuming the officer is socially able to be in the environment without causing any unnecessary issues.
     
  18. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    Dave: I agree with you!!


    Deen
    NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
    "Defender of Freedom" award
    Second Amendment Foundation Member
    Washington Arms Collectors Member
    Arms Collectors of SW Washington Member


    "Having a gun is like a parachute, if you need one and don't have it you may never need it again"
     
  19. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    My main point is that being able to shoot is not enough, LEO and military also deal with people in hostile situations and confrontations a lot more than the Average Joe do, being able to read a situation and knowing how to react is worth more than gold. Putting already tired and strained teachers through regular refresher courses, CQB's etc, will also affect the already poor quality of education our children are receiving. I certainly agree that schools need better security in light of these events, at some point armed security may not be enough, and we'd need to take further action. I see what could be the gradual transformation of schools into detention/prison camps affecting the children a great deal.

    I have some LEO buddies too, and own some really nice and barely used ex - LEO firearms.
     
  20. renfield

    renfield Portland Active Member

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    There are a couple of schools in Portland that have Police Officers assigned to them, they seem to fit in and interact with the kinds, once initial curiosity has died down.