Lawful Self Defense or Excessive Force? You Decide

[Tony617]

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[RVTECH]

If the issue of 'excessive force' is based on the fact the robber had a fake gun well, then there is no issue.

A gun is a gun is a gun.

Leaving the scene was probably not the best idea but he didn't intend to stay 'hidden'.

 

[Foreverlost]

This was on Fox main stream media several days ago. Surprised it took this long to find its way here. Not sure............but some reports the victim did a mag dump. "Same amount of paper work" Add one at-ta boy! And the "coup de grace" Add many at-ta boys! Plus making sure the patrons got their money back. This person gets the "Key to the City".

Personally, I find nothing wrong with swift justice.......................

MSM and anti-gun libtards will search his past to no end. Poor hero.

Foreverlost,

 

[albin25]

They never seem to ask if the perp was aware he had a fake gun... he is seen on video acting like he believed it was a real gun, apparently all his victims believed it was a real gun too.
So, why do they expect the hero to somehow know it wasn't a real gun?
or, that the thug wouldn't turn around in the doorway and open up on the folks in the restaurant.
or, that the thug wouldn't get up after the first shot and start shooting wildly.

 

[Jay Walk]

Posted on nwfa multiple times. No problem with the guy shooting him.
The last five shots are a bad optic is all.

 

[MatthewDB]

Posted on nwfa multiple times. No problem with the guy shooting him.
The last five shots are a bad optic is all.

Yep. I will say that I can't imagine I would do what he did, no matter how adrenaline pumped I was. If the dude isn't moving at all, don't shoot more.

That said, I hope it doesn't get the guy in trouble. I think that being in Houston, the chances of getting indicted are low and the chances of a conviction are even lower.

 

[Xmark1]

Evil can never be dead enough!

 

[Z-PDX]

nobody wants my opinion on legality here.

that said, shooter looked great. waited for a clear backstop, clean draw, solid / high grip on pistol. strong stance. advanced on the threat. accurate shots while moving.even did a passable job a scanning for additional threats before reholstering.

i could almost use that as a training vid on proper presentation and form.

my bet is that this is not this gentleman’s first rodeo.

 

[RVTECH]

So, why do they expect the hero to somehow know it wasn't a real gun?

This should NOT even be brought into 'the fold'.

This is 'splitting hairs' to 'demonize' the good guy and to try to establish some sort of rational, or 'sympathy' for the robber.

Eff that! He died like the pig effer he was.

 

[Jay Walk]

From the camera angle the guy sitting next to the juke box looked a lot like a backstop.

 

[Tony617]

I saw this video before but some the scenes were blurred out so that I why I posted this one since you can see the entire scene. Plus it is gives a good case for justified self defense.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

It's Texas so Texas rules I guess. One of the last shots was to the head. I'm not going to second judge the guy. I wasn't there and it doesn't change anything what I think.

However these kind of events we can definitely learn from IMO. My wife showed me this video (the event video not wa gun law video) yesterday and I discussed it with her.

I told her that in general (not relating to this specific encounter) as citizens our "job" is to stop the attack, not necessarily detain, pursue, capture, etc that LEOS have a duty to do. I referenced many of the Clint Smith lessons of being seen by bystanders/video as having taken passive actions such as backing up etc. I told her that Fe if attacker is down and out and it's safe to disarm him and look for accomplices/other threats then that would be ideal. I told her that's why we can't shoot someone in the back running away (assuming attacker is no longer armed let's say to make it more simple). I told her that is mainly from a civil suit perspective but also because of where we live. Having evidence of things like trying to de-escalate, saying "stop, get back" (or whatever), people/video seeing you backing up, even saying "I want him arrested" when police arrive are all things that could possibly help. Those may or may not be possible depending on the encounter though.

I also told her about the danger of "priming the pump" or "daring someone" or escalating the situation. Those things can make you lose your self defense defense as I understand it. I'm no expert, just passing on what we talked about after seeing this video of the event. Also I should add we discussed that to the people there whether it was a real gun or not makes no difference. Anyone there would reasonably be in fear for their life if it was a realistic looking fake fun.

 

[Stomper]

The answer is: don’t rob people and you won’t get shot.


Derpa-derpa-derp….

 

[L84Cabo]

His initial shots were likely legal. Albeit it was also probably a bad decision to start shooting since there was another civilian in the corner and appeared to be in his line of fire. If he had a pass-through or a miss, he could have easily hit that guy. And this is purely based on the camera angles from the video. I could easily be wrong about this but that's how it looked in the video.

It's his final shots that could get him into big trouble. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what any of us think. It only matters how a jury perceives those final shots. I think he's got a 50/50 chance. Many people could EASILY decide the threat was over at that point and those shots were unnecessary. It's going to be the luck of the draw on who he gets on a jury...if it goes that far. I would definitely NOT want to have to defend myself in this case. It could EASILY go very bad for him.

Leaving the scene is also NEVER a good look. That's a really dumb thing to do. If you must leave because of safety concerns, you better get on the phone and let the police know what's up.

 

[po18guy]

As far as the defender knew, the perp had a firearm and was ready to use it - already had used it to threaten. Immediate flight from a violent felony, coupled with the apparent ability to cause grievous bodily harm or death is one justification for dumping him. Center mass warning shot is allowed. Keep firing until the threat is neutralized.

Has often occurred that an innocent person walking into the business has been shot by perps making their exit. This one is on the perp.

 

[Droo]

Criminal defense attorney breaking it down pretty well here. The first few shots were gtg, but it gets a bit dicey after that. Especially the 9th "kill" shot he took when the perp was on the ground.

 

[Barefootdog]

Not pretty or polite but recidivism won't be an issue.

 

[JohnnyMac]

As long as he didn't reload and continue shooting I think he is good.

 

[Ops]

murder, the last show did it. and if you look his partner never moved so it could be a smolett style. cant testify if you cant testify

 

[Flopsweat]

Bill brings up something I hadn't thought of: Lethal force is lethal force. Where lethal force is justified, there is little to no second-guessing how the defender achieves lethality. That's very interesting. It probably doesn't change how I like to think I would have acted in this situation (stopped at 4 shots), but it's definitely thought-provoking.