Lawful Self Defense or Excessive Force? You Decide

[ilikegunspdx]

Bill brings up something I hadn't thought of: Lethal force is lethal force. Where lethal force is justified, there is little to no second-guessing how the defender achieves lethality. That's very interesting. It probably doesn't change how I like to think I would have acted in this situation (stopped at 4 shots), but it's definitely thought-provoking.

Who is Bill?

 

[Flopsweat]

Who is Bill?

William Kirk.

 

[Xmark1]

William Kirk.

That's Captain to you, sir.

 

[Mark W.]

This is only my opinion.

Shooting the bad guy totally justified until he was on the ground with the gun sliding away from him. The shots with the guy prone on the floor pretty sure unless I was suffering what ever the "Shoot a Bad Guy" version of buck fever is I would not have taken the shots past the initial 4 that put the guy on the floor and caused him to loose the gun.

That all said. This guy better hope he has a good lawyer.

 

[Xmark1]

This is only my opinion.

Shooting the bad guy totally justified until he was on the ground with the gun sliding away from him. The shots with the guy prone on the floor pretty sure unless I was suffering what ever the "Shoot a Bad Guy" version of buck fever is I would not have taken the shots past the initial 4 that put the guy on the floor and caused him to loose the gun.

That all said. This guy better hope he has a good lawyer.

And A friendly judge.

The last shots when the perp was down, are gonna be a problem.

 

[sealine]

And A friendly judge.

The last shots when the perp was down, are gonna be a problem.

Not only was the bad guy down, but the shooter had bent over and picked up the bad guy's gun, THEN he put the last shot in him.

Yikes.....

 

[wired]

The coup de grace at the end kinda put it over the top. He wouldn't want me on his jury.

 

[RVTECH]

Yikes.....

Well, I missed all this 'follow up' that is being described as I did not sign in to watch the vid and only saw the 'abbreviated' version.

That being said IF all this is true,and he in fact shot the guy while having control of his gun then he exceeded what is commonly accepted as applying only that level of self defense until the threat no longer exists, and yes this could be a problem.

 

[Koda]

Bill brings up something I hadn't thought of: Lethal force is lethal force. Where lethal force is justified, there is little to no second-guessing how the defender achieves lethality.

There is. Whats missing from this is the legal doctrine of reasonableness. Without reasonableness, lethal force is no longer justified.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Who is Bill?

 

[WillametteWill]

Just imagine if the "good guy" had been wearing a uniform.

Pitchforks and torches everywhere.

 

[The Heretic]

Lawful? Maybe not (I will let the Grand Jury decide that).

Excessive? No?

 

[nammac]

Once the perp was no longer a threat, then the defender should have ceased fire, just my opinion. Adrenaline does funny things to people…. Could be as simple as that…

Either way:
Perp - 0
Good guy with a gun - 1

 

[Flopsweat]

Well, I missed all this 'follow up' that is being described as I did not sign in to watch the vid and only saw the 'abbreviated' version.

That being said IF all this is true,and he in fact shot the guy while having control of his gun then he exceeded what is commonly accepted as applying only that level of self defense until the threat no longer exists, and yes this could be a problem.

You don't need to log in; just use Invidious.

Lawful Self Defense or Excessive Force? You Decide.

Washington Gun Law President, William Kirk, breaks down a recent self-defense shooting from the Houston area that has garnered a lot of attention because it demonstrates the amount of violence and force that can be used to defense yourself and others in your presence when you are in imminent...

yewtu.be

 

[Xmark1]

Once the perp was no longer a threat, then the defender should have ceased fire, just my opinion. Adrenaline does funny things to people…. Could be as simple as that…

Either way:
Perp - 0
Good guy with a gun - 1

Adrenaline. That is true, it makes people do things they might not otherwise do.
This is always a problem in such an intense situation.
Studies have shown that in high stress scenarios, brain function shifts from the cerebrum to the cerebellum.

 

[RVTECH]

You don't need to log in; just use Invidious.

Got it! Thanks!

 

[Provincial]

The place emptied out real quickly. It makes you wonder if they had reason to avoid the authorities. It may be very hard to round up witnesses.

If I was the defense lawyer, I would use this to point out that all the patrons were traumatized, including the shooter. They were not thinking straight because of the stress.

 

[tac]

Just a word here folks, about 'real' and 'replica' guns. I spent over five years of my life, on and off, after I left the Army back in 2000, putting my lifetime of interest in shooting, my hands-on knowledge of many handguns, and my skill and artifice as an imagery analyst to good use as an Expert Witness - mostly for the Crown, but sometimes for the other side, presenting my interpretation/expert opinion as evidence about the purported firearms use in the commission of a crime, derived principally from imagery captured on CCTV.

I have over fifty major court appearances to my credit, including the principal court of justice in the UK, the Old Bailey.

I can categorically state that in only a single ONE of those many court appearances was I able to produce evidence that threw some doubt - not certainty - on whether or not the object appearing in the imagery was a REAL LIVE BULLET-SHOOTING handgun, capable of inflicting injury or death. The rest of the many cases were 'it was not possible for to state with any degree of certainty whether or not the object in the defendant's hand, which appears to be a handgun, is either a real, live-firing handgun, or a replica of one'.

That doubt was raised on MY part because the handgun, which appeared to be a Beretta Model 92F, was all-black, apart from a shiny silver barrel. It therefore MIGHT have been a replica, like this one below, or it might have been a real gun with a replacement stainless barrel. I might add that I actually bought this one to offer additional support for the assertion one way or the other.



In not a single one of any of the other cases was I able to tell the difference between real or replica where a handgun was concerned from the imagery evidence.

The point, however, is moot. The FACT remains that here in UK law, the person holding what appears to be a handgun was using it to 'occasion fear for the life of the victim', and the charge remained the same - armed robbery or use of a firearm 'in a threatening manner' to commit any other crime.

Luckily for you, in MOST states of the USA you are able, even as a civilian, to defend yourselves or the lives of others by the use of your own firearms, something we cannot do here.

 

[HotRodGuy]

Shots until the gun was clear, good.
Shots after the gun was clear, abuse of a corpse.
Still a felony in TX, but I'd say plea down to a suspended misdemeanor with 20hr community service -1hr for the community service provided by the incident. Clear after community service completed. Suggested community service as taking part in gun safety training course with "knowing what is in front of and behind your target".

 

[American123]

If you go by what the law will do, you'll rarely be content with the "justice" it finds.

I'm sure by the letter of the law he is in legal trouble. I'm sure the races in the case are definitely going to be a factor and a lot of the reason it already has been propelled to national spotlight compared to all the other shootings that aren't.

I believe threatening others with (even perceived) deadly force is something that is legally grounds for being shot and I would vote not to charge the guy. The fact of the matter is, had the robber not come in and threatened people he'd still be alive. His death was entirely his fault.