Other State Las Vegas police shootout

[bbbass]

Coupla thunks...

I've shot thru a windshield from the outside going in and it does move slower/lighter bullets around a surprising amount... but never have shot from the inside going out thru the windscreen... goodness gracious that must have been LOUD!!!

As far as going thru red lights... in a hot pursuit I don't have a problem with it as long as the officers are traveling code 3... those flasher lights are visible from far away, sirens not as much as I thought... gotta keep those earbud thingys out of the ear when driving... However, don't the stoplights have automated switching? ... sound/siren activated or radio controlled??? IDK. Can somebody that knows please chime in here... any automated stoplight switching????

 

[titsonritz]

I can't imagine shooting through his window while driving is condoned by his department. Very surprised they didn't back off the chase when the suspects are taking random shots of the pursuing cops.

Depends on the level of threat.

 

[nammac]

Depends on the level of threat.

Interesting, especially when he went full auto... I respect the dirty job they're faced with doing sometimes, my hats off and all due respect to our LEO's. Thinking about it, thats's got to be absolutely deafening shooting from an enclosed vehicle.

I remember my first shooting experience, without ear protection, after one box of 9mm, I felt like I'd been in front of the speakers at a rock concert.

 

[11Charlie]

I'm guessing at that moment in time, the loudness of shooting from a moving vehicle through a windshield probably didn't affect his hearing.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Coupla thunks...

I've shot thru a windshield from the outside going in and it does move slower/lighter bullets around a surprising amount... but never have shot from the inside going out thru the windscreen... goodness gracious that must have been LOUD!!!

As far as going thru red lights... in a hot pursuit I don't have a problem with it as long as the officers are traveling code 3... those lights are visible from far away, sirens not as much as I thought... gotta keep those earbud thingys out of the ear when driving... However, don't the stoplights have automated switching? ... sound/siren activated or radio controlled??? IDK. Can somebody that knows please chime in here... any automated stoplight switching????

Here in Scappoose our Fire Dept and Police use "opticom" to keep the lights green. You turn it on and it does the rest.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Back in the old days they tried that with the old .38/158grRNL load and just wound up with hot lead burning their balls.
















not really

but that old glass is tougher'n heck and .38/.45 would often just bounce off

 

[MrMillspecer]

Well it's probably easier to shoot through the windshield than practice with the left hand or get cars with steering wheels on the right side. Bet his ears were ringing.

 

[bbbass]

Here in Scappoose our Fire Dept and Police use "opticom" to keep the lights green. You turn it on and it does the rest.

Had to look that one up. Thx!

Opticom IR for emergency responders - GTT

 

[Cerberus Group]

Depends on the level of threat.

My first impression is how calm he was while driving, shooting, then reloading. I would say there's a difference in training time between the two.

 

[shibbershabber]

My first impression is how calm he was while driving, shooting, then reloading. I would say there's a difference in training time between the two.

Do you guys incorporate working in and around vehicles in any of your classes?

 

[Cerberus Group]

Yes. The S.A.T. class offers basic maneuvering in and around vehicles. I've got a vehicle specific class I'm working on now...both are not offered as of yet. Most likely next spring...stay tuned

Am a one man band here for the most part, as the other instructors have jobs and lives of their own. Looking for another instructor now...but am picky, they must have certain credentials.

 

[CHLChris]

I'm guessing at that moment in time, the loudness of shooting from a moving vehicle through a windshield probably didn't affect his hearing.

Auditory exclusion (which, you are correct that he probably was experiencing at the time because of massive adrenaline) does not actually protect the ears. It is my understanding that auditory exclusion is a perception protection, not an effective physical prophylactic. Meaning, I bet he still had hearing damage even if the shots didn't affect him at the time.

 

[11Charlie]

Auditory exclusion (which, you are correct that he probably was experiencing at the time because of massive adrenaline) does not actually protect the ears. It is my understanding that auditory exclusion is a perception protection, not an effective physical prophylactic. Meaning, I bet he still had hearing damage even if the shots didn't affect him at the time.

Oh I am sure after the adrenaline wore off his ears were ringing like a church bell in the Swiss Alps but in that moment he probably didn't even think or hear a thing except his radio.

 

[CHLChris]

For the record, if you count the rounds, it makes obvious that he is carrying a Glock 17, 9mm, with 17+1 rounds. I think it was 5 through the windshield, then 6 out the same windshield holes, then 7 taking the gun to slide lock.

Given that really bad reload (but is any reload, under fire, that gets the gun back into action really a bad reload?) he is maybe left-handed? Or maybe he was keeping his muzzle pointed toward the brick building, which is why he used his left thumb? I don't know, but that was a janky reload.

 

[CHLChris]

Hey, I just looked at that reload again. You know what it really looks like? A revolver reload where you transfer into your left hand for your fingers to hold the cylinder open. And then right hand bringing the speed loader up to the cylinder.

If there are any revolver shooters out there to confirm what I saw...

 

[Cerberus Group]

Given that really bad reload (but is any reload, under fire, that gets the gun back into action really a bad reload?) he is maybe left-handed? Or maybe he was keeping his muzzle pointed toward the brick building, which is why he used his left thumb? I don't know, but that was a janky reload.

Most all his shooting was from his right hand, even fired two handed over the steering wheel and right handed the trigger. But he switched to the left when firing some of the rounds out the window...I would say he's right handed.

Yes, it was a bad reload...revolver load? Good thought CHLChris. As I said above, not enough info on the guy. Would like to see his background and firearm training record.

Am not saying more training would have fixed that, but have been in some nasty stuff on the street and in woodland warfare with some cool cucumbers who trained like there's no tomorrow...and never saw any of that.

 

[Cerberus Group]

As I was going back through this thread, a thought came to me that coincides with what I tell people during my classes. That is...one must fight through what is dealt, instead of what was trained for.

I know throughout my LE career, I recall only a very few times where we trained in and around vehicles. And this coming from a profession that depends on vehicles...ugh!

My thoughts;

Was this incident using advanced skill sets? Not in my opinion, as you never know how your gunfight will play out. You have to fight through what is dealt you. One can't walk away and say...I'm not doing this, I don't know how to solve this.

Training will never cover every possibility, but it will give you enough to go on to complete the task at hand, as long as the training varies in what you do and you do it consistently.

Go back and look at the video from this angle...take the windshield out of the equation for a moment, and some of these same things seen can be done on the range...basic gun shooting skill, both one and two handed. Now add an object you have to shoot over that replicates the steering wheel. Now shoot cross body, like shooting out the window, and shoot left handed...basic fundamental skills?

I understand, we're not driving a car at the time...but look at the basics being demanded, they are still there. Still got to have a good grip, sight alignment, trigger control etc., no matter while driving a car or standing.

Now add shooting from a vehicle on your range while moving, a golf cart, side by side...it can be done. Use your creative juices...

 

[DirectDrive]

Nice summary !

 

[HB of CJ]

Let's concentrate on the first one minute of the video. The officers driving skills or lack there of. How much public danger potential did the officer create driving the way he was driving? Reacting the way he was reacting. His emotional response was way out of bounds. His driving was way out of bounds.

I for one could not even understand what he was trying to say. A highly emotional scene. I for one would be tremendously embarrassed if that body camera video was ever released. Which it was. The difference between a professional and an non professional is keeping your cool when others around you are not.

Which was my point. My only point. His emotional response. His driving or again lack of. He endangered the public. The first rule of a code three emergency high speed response is do not make things worse. He was lucky. I did not see any particular driving skill. He needs a three day suspension. Then driving school.

My view based upon experience. Thousands of emergency responses. Not one wreck. Getting to the scene is only a portion of the job. Keeping your head straight and doing your job is the other major part of it. Again ... when did this cop pre determine he was just going to shoot the guy? Important. Death by cop?

This might be a good example of Red Light Fever.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Let's concentrate on the first one minute of the video. The officers driving skills or lack there of. How much public danger potential did the officer create driving the way he was driving? Reacting the way he was reacting. His emotional response was way out of bounds. His driving was way out of bounds.

I for one could not even understand what he was trying to say. A highly emotional scene. I for one would be tremendously embarrassed if that body camera video was ever released. Which it was. The difference between a professional and an non professional is keeping your cool when others around you are not.

Which was my point. My only point. His emotional response. His driving or again lack of. He endangered the public. The first rule of a code three emergency high speed response is do not make things worse. He was lucky. I did not see any particular driving skill. He needs a three day suspension. Then driving school.

My view based upon experience. Thousands of emergency responses. Not one wreck. Getting to the scene is only a portion of the job. Keeping your head straight and doing your job is the other major part of it. Again ... when did this cop pre determine he was just going to shoot the guy? Important. Death by cop?

This might be a good example of Red Light Fever.

So you'd have the f'er turn tail and run away like that f in Florida's school shooting? nice