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Does anyone hear know of even one person in their life that has not broken a single law in their entire life? Sped? Trespassed? Drank under age? Etc? Etc?
If anyone who wished to be a police officer had to be absolutely innocent of any transgression in their lives to do the job, no one would qualify. Officers are like the rest of us. Trying to be the best people they can. Sometimes they make mistakes (or whatever you people want to call it, bottom line, they screw up). These two officers screwed up. Hopefully, they'll face the same justice the rest of us are subject to. If they don't, its wrong. If they're guilty, they'll lose their licenses for a year. After that, who knows...
Yes ...there is something about glass houses and stones isn't there...I guess the officers in question will find out about that now won't they?
W44
Thanks, I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to it.
You display your lack of understanding or reading comprehension. There must be a "higher" standard for those that wish to feed at the public trough.
Or do you find it acceptable that an officer can stand before the bench as defendant one day and give testimony against a citizen the next?
If you want to police my actions, your actions must be above reproach. Period.
W44
et tu Brutus? The poster I was replying to waded in with a "put up or shut up" statement. He clearly stated that he didn't think that the majority of posters could "pass the test". Hardly an answer to "Should public officials be held to a higher standard?"Let me ask you, is your position so weak that you must begin your reply with a meaningless slam on someones intelligence?
So if we think about ethics and standards of conduct, it's ok. At least it was discussed in the squad room.With that said, I can understand where you are coming from here. I dont agree, but I do understand. Yes, police carry the responsibility of authority and therefore must be held to a higher moral standard. Police ethics is a very serious topic and believe me when I say that departments have their officers thinking about this topic everyday.
Neither does letting a wolf back in the sheep pen. Just imagine if the Chief (and since we're imagining, let's give him or her the backing of the union on this) fired the cops for conduct unbecoming...Would that send a message to the other officers on the force?However, as MountainBear mentioned, they are only human beings. They are our brothers, sisters, uncles, etc., and they have the same shortcomings as anyone else could potentially have. You mentioned that "If you want to police my actions, your actions must be above reproach. Period." By this logic, NO ONE is worthy of policing your actions (Or anyones actions for that matter). The police officer you speak of does not exist, because they are all human and have made varying degrees of mistakes just like everyone else. So when you do something against the law, you should get away with it because the arresting officer may have once broken a law? Doesn't make much sense.
I am glad we can agreeDo I believe that these guys in the OP deserve lenience for their DUII's because they are police officers? Heck no.
Since officers often testify based on their "training" in recognizing substance abuse; these officers fail...Do they get to practice on the populace some more? probably.Should their actions effect their jobs since they should be held to a higher standard? Absolutely.
And here we disagree...The courts give great weight to the officers "judgment", greater weight than a citizen by an order of magnitude. (Just see what happens when an officer says one thing and a citizen says another, in court). Yet by your (in my opinion low) standards their lapse of judgment is "human" and to be forgiven...But in court next week their judgment is sound?????Can we make a blanket statement that any officer who has ever broken a law does not have the moral grounds to police your actions? No way! An officers personal history has nothing to do with you doing something against the law. Period.
et tu Brutus? The poster I was replying to waded in with a "put up or shut up" statement. He clearly stated that he didn't think that the majority of posters could "pass the test". Hardly an answer to "Should public officials be held to a higher standard?"
So if we think about ethics and standards of conduct, it's ok. At least it was discussed in the squad room.
Neither does letting a wolf back in the sheep pen. Just imagine if the Chief (and since we're imagining, let's give him or her the backing of the union on this) fired the cops for conduct unbecoming...Would that send a message to the other officers on the force?
As for me, I try very hard to stay on the "right" side of the legal system, the outside.
I am glad we can agree
Since officers often testify based on their "training" in recognizing substance abuse; these officers fail...Do they get to practice on the populace some more? probably.
And here we disagree...The courts give great weight to the officers "judgment", greater weight than a citizen by an order of magnitude. (Just see what happens when an officer says one thing and a citizen says another, in court). Yet by your (in my opinion low) standards their lapse of judgment is "human" and to be forgiven...But in court next week their judgment is sound?????
In my trade, if I mess up things get ruined.. If I mess up my safety, people die. I have to accept responsibility for my actions AND the actions of those with me..There are mechanisms in place (Gov't mandated) to remove my ability to work should I fail...
Cops and politicians....Most that apply shouldn't have the job....Most that should have it, wouldn't take it....
W44
(I have been asked to apply for that job a few times)
Edit to add: Imagine if you were a trucker. Dependent on your license for a living. Ticketed by a convicted DUII officer and sentenced by a convicted DUII judge...Oh the humanity......
et tu Brutus? The poster I was replying to waded in with a "put up or shut up" statement. He clearly stated that he didn't think that the majority of posters could "pass the test". Hardly an answer to "Should public officials be held to a higher standard?"
I see way too much cop bashing on here.Threads don't turn into cop bashing,they start as such.
If you can do better,or even pass the tests,man up and do better.
Seems to me like a bunch of guys on here were bullied in high school and failed the cop tests.
So if we think about ethics and standards of conduct, it's ok. At least it was discussed in the squad room.
Neither does letting a wolf back in the sheep pen. Just imagine if the Chief (and since we're imagining, let's give him or her the backing of the union on this) fired the cops for conduct unbecoming...Would that send a message to the other officers on the force?
As for me, I try very hard to stay on the "right" side of the legal system, the outside.
If you want to police my actions, your actions must be above reproach. Period.
And here we disagree...The courts give great weight to the officers "judgment", greater weight than a citizen by an order of magnitude. (Just see what happens when an officer says one thing and a citizen says another, in court). Yet by your (in my opinion low) standards their lapse of judgment is "human" and to be forgiven...But in court next week their judgment is sound?????
In my trade, if I mess up things get ruined.. If I mess up my safety, people die. I have to accept responsibility for my actions AND the actions of those with me..There are mechanisms in place (Gov't mandated) to remove my ability to work should I fail...
Cops and politicians....Most that apply shouldn't have the job....Most that should have it, wouldn't take it....
W44
(I have been asked to apply for that job a few times)
Edit to add: Imagine if you were a trucker. Dependent on your license for a living. Ticketed by a convicted DUII officer and sentenced by a convicted DUII judge...Oh the humanity......
Cops and politicians....Most that apply shouldn't have the job....Most that should have it, wouldn't take it....(I have been asked to apply for that job a few times)
And here we disagree...The courts give great weight to the officers "judgment", greater weight than a citizen by an order of magnitude. (Just see what happens when an officer says one thing and a citizen says another, in court). Yet by your (in my opinion low) standards their lapse of judgment is "human" and to be forgiven...But in court next week their judgment is sound?????
In my trade, if I mess up things get ruined.. If I mess up my safety, people die. I have to accept responsibility for my actions AND the actions of those with me..There are mechanisms in place (Gov't mandated) to remove my ability to work should I fail...
So if an officer has ever broken any statute, law, or rule, then his judgment is no longer to be trusted. Assuming an officer breaks a speed limit and is given a ticket. Does that somehow make them him less capable of determining that a citizen is speeding? Or is it that you just no longer trust him because he has done the same thing? I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but people in glass houses. Everyone in the world has broken some sort of rule, law, or code. If we went by what your suggesting, who would qualify to be an LEO? Really, not a hypothetical. Who?
If LEO's mess up on the job, they are dealt with as well. Just because people on a forum can find a few examples of LEO's acting poorly does not mean that everything is covered up. It does not mean that the majority of people doing the job shouldn't be. With all due respect, and without resorting to personal attacks, you assertion that MOST police officers shouldn't be doing the job seems to show an unfamiliarity with the industry. There are certainly those who shouldn't be. Having a bad encounter with a LEO or reading a news article does not qualify one to make broad generalizations.
I hope the officers in the OP are held accountable for their actions. I hope all officers who violate the law and risk the lives of those around them (both on and off the job) should be held accountable.
Yet by your (in my opinion low) standards their lapse of judgment is "human" and to be forgiven...But in court next week their judgment is sound?????
et tu? Brutus. To answer the first question "No, I do not want to be a cop...that doesn't preclude me from an opinion on the subject...However come in swingin' and take your licks. To answer it the second time...The poster that I was answering attempted to justify the actions of these officers by insinuating that I (and the others on this side of the discussion) are unqualified for the job, thus, unqualified for an opinion...He was wrong on both counts..Forgive me, I had no idea that you were going to defend your rude statement with the classic: "Well, he did it first!" fifth grade argument!
What offends me? Again, the insinuation that I am unworthy of an opinion because I don't wear the blue. (If all cops are judged by the likes of the poster, it's no wonder that people are distrustful of them) Also the denigrating statement about being bullied in High School..Were all cops bullies in High School?( Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that one)..Lets take a look at what was actually said by this member:I see way too much cop bashing on here.Threads don't turn into cop bashing,they start as such.
If you can do better,or even pass the tests,man up and do better.
Seems to me like a bunch of guys on here were bullied in high school and failed the cop tests.
What about "put up or shut up" offends you in this circumstance? This member has a valid point, saying that if you have issue with the quality of character found in our police, than sign up and give us some quality. If more people had this general attitude, our country might not be in the shape it's in today.
Oh...So now you have moral superiority because "most of the general population are sidelined whiners" Well said! (and you have the balls to insinuate that I am overly egotistic) Oh please, Noble sir, What is best for me Noble sir?If you have a problem with the police, than sign up and make a difference. If you have a problem with local, state, or federal politics, than sign up and work for the change you desire. This would be considered as taking action upon your beliefs, rather than sitting on the sidelines and whining like most of the general public does so well these days.
Yes... It becomes clear now....I am actually in college majoring in Criminal Justice, and we are focusing right now on police ethics. If you actually believe that this is only thought about and discussed in the squad room, you would be mistaken. Departments take the topic of ethics very seriously, as do most sworn police officers. Yes, there are instances where police step outside the boundaries of ethical behavior, but this is due to the fact that we are not employing robots to work as police officers, but human beings. However this is the exception, not the rule. Most officers take their jobs very seriously, and work hard to operate on a high moral standard.
I said it and I mean it..Please comment on the trucker denied a livelihood after being arrested by a DUII cop and sentenced by a DUII judge.I see that you evaded the main point of this paragraph. You stated that:If you want to police my actions, your actions must be above reproach. Period.
I have spent more time in criminal court than most...I know how the system works...And no I'm not a criminal.And I say that you are creating a circumstance in which no one has the moral authority to police your actions. To me, it sounds like an excuse. Police are hired not to judge your actions, but rather to bring you to a court to be judged. Roll that around for a minute.
1. I have been.. 2. No, I know a few good cops 3. No brag, just fact.I see what this is about now. You feel as though you have been wronged by the police in some way in some circumstance, therefore you are willing to label them all as bad. You also seem to have an overinflated sense of ego, as displayed in this comment:
Sooooo...Let's give Charlie Manson a uniform? Orrrrr...Lets turn it around...How can you uphold the law when ye can't follow it yourself?So based upon your (in my opinion misguided) opinion, what is the solution to this issue? No one has good judgement, because they may have used bad judgement in some point in their past, so who has the virgin authority to police your actions? Do you want to be judged for the rest of your life for your mistakes or transgressions? If you make a mistake today, does that automatically mean you will make a mistake tomorrow? And what difference does it make if an officer may have used poor judgement in the past, to the crime that needs policing?
Ya got that right...It's admittedly an imperfect system bud, it's an imperfect world we live in.
Oh bubblegummin' please.....Additionally, how does one learn and grow as a human being? We learn from our mistakes my friend. The bigger the mistake, the greater the lesson. If an officer violates the law or makes a bad ethical judgement, they are disciplined or relieved from duty for those mistakes in most circumstances. Then, if that officer has the wherewithal to climb back in the saddle and prove that he or she can hold his/herself to that higher moral standard based upon a lesson learned, than their opinion would then hold even more weight in my opinion (Obviously based upon the degree of severity in that mistake).
LOL. ****, one of our local county Judges has had multiple DUI's. It amazes me that he still is a judge.
As far as I am concerned, judges and police officers who hold powerful positions that can HUGELY impact others, must be held to a higher standard. That doesn't mean that a police officer who speeds a bit, or breaks the law in a trivial way needs to be fired. To me, if that person exercises bad judgement that endangers the public's wellbeing, such as driving while intoxicated, they show they are lacking in the judgement to hold those powerful positions. That is my thought on the subject.
Oh bubblegummin' please.....
If the ridiculous statement above is true why would a cop need to pull a rap sheet? After all the perp could be turnin' his life around....His history should have no bearing on the current investigation...Right?
Hey, here is a tip- if you have been CONVICTED of a crime, your a criminal. Oh, wait, you were railroaded by cops and judges- big conspiracy. Come on...et tu? Brutus. To answer the first question "No, I do not want to be a cop...that doesn't preclude me from an opinion on the subject...However come in swingin' and take your licks. To answer it the second time...The poster that I was answering attempted to justify the actions of these officers by insinuating that I (and the others on this side of the discussion) are unqualified for the job, thus, unqualified for an opinion...He was wrong on both counts..
What offends me? Again, the insinuation that I am unworthy of an opinion because I don't wear the blue. (If all cops are judged by the likes of the poster, it's no wonder that people are distrustful of them) Also the denigrating statement about being bullied in High School..Were all cops bullies in High School?( Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that one)..
Oh...So now you have moral superiority because "most of the general population are sidelined whiners" Well said! (and you have the balls to insinuate that I am overly egotistic) Oh please, Noble sir, What is best for me Noble sir?
Yes... It becomes clear now....
You speak as though you have sat in every squad room and personally know every officer...That's laughable..Of course they teach ya that in school son...Now open your bubblegummin' eyes. Power corrupts...If it didn't there wouldn't be IA...Just a bunch of starry eyed criminal justice majors doin' good at every turn.
I said it and I mean it..Please comment on the trucker denied a livelihood after being arrested by a DUII cop and sentenced by a DUII judge.
I have spent more time in criminal court than most...I know how the system works...And no I'm not a criminal.
1. I have been.. 2. No, I know a few good cops 3. No brag, just fact.
Sooooo...Let's give Charlie Manson a uniform? Orrrrr...Lets turn it around...How can you uphold the law when ye can't follow it yourself?
Ya got that right...
I don't hate cops....I don't even hate the bad ones. I do have some dislike for out of control power trippers though..And folks that would make excuses for inadequate performance.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder...I work out with a cop. I coach wrestling with another. Another sponsored me in my church..My Great Grampa was a cop as was my Grampa. One of my shootin' buddies is a retired cop ( he even arrested me when I was a teen).. When my shootin' buddy (He retired as chief) was Mayor I asked him about a situation much like OP posted. He fired the cop in question. I asked why. He stated " Any attorney worth his salt could beat any case the guy worked because of his situation. I cannot expose the City to that threat."
That guy can police my actions...OK?
You don't know me...or the trail that I've walked...But you do know yourself (I hope)...Look in the mirror and see if you don't have a little hero worship goin' on...My point is cops swear to uphold the law of the land....They should be disqualified from the position if they cannot also abide by it....
W44
I'll answer Mt Bear after chores....
et tu? Brutus. To answer the first question "No, I do not want to be a cop...that doesn't preclude me from an opinion on the subject...However come in swingin' and take your licks. To answer it the second time...The poster that I was answering attempted to justify the actions of these officers by insinuating that I (and the others on this side of the discussion) are unqualified for the job, thus, unqualified for an opinion...He was wrong on both counts..
What offends me? Again, the insinuation that I am unworthy of an opinion because I don't wear the blue. (If all cops are judged by the likes of the poster, it's no wonder that people are distrustful of them) Also the denigrating statement about being bullied in High School..Were all cops bullies in High School?( Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that one)..
Oh...So now you have moral superiority because "most of the general population are sidelined whiners" Well said! (and you have the balls to insinuate that I am overly egotistic) Oh please, Noble sir, What is best for me Noble sir?
Yes... It becomes clear now....
You speak as though you have sat in every squad room and personally know every officer...That's laughable..Of course they teach ya that in school son...Now open your bubblegummin' eyes. Power corrupts...If it didn't there wouldn't be IA...Just a bunch of starry eyed criminal justice majors doin' good at every turn.
I said it and I mean it..Please comment on the trucker denied a livelihood after being arrested by a DUII cop and sentenced by a DUII judge.
I have spent more time in criminal court than most...I know how the system works...And no I'm not a criminal.
1. I have been.. 2. No, I know a few good cops 3. No brag, just fact.
Sooooo...Let's give Charlie Manson a uniform? Orrrrr...Lets turn it around...How can you uphold the law when ye can't follow it yourself?
Ya got that right...
I don't hate cops....I don't even hate the bad ones.I don't have a chip on my shoulder.
When my shootin' buddy (He retired as chief) was Mayor I asked him about a situation much like OP posted. He fired the cop in question. I asked why. He stated " Any attorney worth his salt could beat any case the guy worked because of his situation. I cannot expose the City to that threat."
That guy can police my actions...OK?
You don't know me...or the trail that I've walked...But you do know yourself (I hope)...Look in the mirror and see if you don't have a little hero worship goin' on...My point is cops swear to uphold the law of the land....They should be disqualified from the position if they cannot also abide by it....
I'll dissect it for ya....Errr....OK..... I never asked you if you wanted to be a cop. I also never said that you couldn't have an opinion because you aren't one. The guy you responded to said nothing like that either. His point may have been made a little roughly, but the general idea was that if you have issue with the quality of character found in our police, than sign up if you are able and give us some quality. Pretty simple.
Everybody here picks on cops.I see way too much cop bashing on here.Threads don't turn into cop bashing,they start as such.
You are not a man because you have not passed the test...This calling is so great that everybody should want to be a cop..If you could you would...If you can do better,or even pass the tests,man up and do better.
Not too subtly sayin' "anybody that asks the police to follow the law is weenie that was beat up in school (and therefore not worthy of consideration.)Seems to me like a bunch of guys on here were bullied in high school and failed the cop tests.
So what is your opinion of the posters last sentence in the above quote...Again, no one ever said that you are unworthy of an opinion as far as I saw. But hey, opinions are like @ss-holes, everybody has 'em and they all stink.
What exactly do you mean? I do extensive volunteer work to better this nation. Many folks do...I am not trying to end up on the top of a moral superiority pigpile here bub. But are you really denying the fact that the vast majority of folks in the US dont do anything to change the circumstances they whine about? I never said I wasn't just as guilty as anyone else in this regard, so no, I am not climbing to moral high ground. I have worked as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, Sheriff's Posse Member, Corrections Deputy, ambulance driver, volunteer firefighter, ans am currently seeking a degree in Criminal Justice. While I have wanted to work in law enforcement and try to give folks a better opinion of police through my actions, I have also sat back and complained about politics and I didn't vote in the last elections. So I dont deny my own hypocrisy, do you?
Again....I don't wanna be a cop...Do I have to be a cop to want good cops? Do I have to move to DC if want good representation? Again, I am away from home most weekends volunteerin' to make this Nation better. You make it better 'cause that's where you want to work...If you have a problem with the police, than sign up and make a difference. If you have a problem with local, state, or federal politics, than sign up and work for the change you desire. This would be considered as taking action upon your beliefs, rather than sitting on the sidelines and whining like most of the general public does so well these days.
And here is where we will differ..No, I have not sat in every squad room or claimed I knew every officer personally. But I have been involved in aspects of law enforcement for the better part of 10 years, know many officers personally, and am in college for Criminal Justice. Beyond that, we are both taxpayers and I believe that we can each have our own opinion on the subject.Departments take the topic of ethics very seriously, as do most sworn police officers. Yes, there are instances where police step outside the boundaries of ethical behavior, but this is due to the fact that we are not employing robots to work as police officers, but human beings.
Also here......My life experiences combine with the wisdom of ages when I say "power corrupts".Also, what is laughable is your pessimistic view that "Power corrupts." Internal Affairs exists because everyone who holds a position of power needs oversight, not because everyone who holds authority is corrupt.
Are you serious? If the cops lose their licenses (My predictions are "not gonna happen") Will they lose their jobs? Or will they shuffle papers until they get diversion and then back at it?Are you serious? Did the trucker drive while intoxicated? He committed the crime? If he is guilty, what difference does it make if the judge with a DUII conviction convicts the trucker? Mickey Mouse could convict the trucker and the guy is still guilty of the crime. The judge didn't make the law. He is just ruling that it was in violation of the law and issues sentencing.
Condescending much?I have spent more time in criminal court than most...I know how the system works...And no I'm not a criminal.
Okey dokey.
dittoOkey dokey.
Additionally, how does one learn and grow as a human being? We learn from our mistakes my friend. The bigger the mistake, the greater the lesson.Ya. Lets give Charlie Manson a uniform. Thats what I said.
So why should I believe that you are anything but a cop apologist?I don't hate cops....I don't even hate the bad ones.I don't have a chip on my shoulder.
Sorry, I find that a little hard to believe, but okey dokey.
Okey bubblegummin' dokey to you bud....No double standard there bud..The Mayor fired the cop because in his experience (a lifetime on one small town force) any evidence brought by the fired cop would be tainted...and might release otherwise prosecutable criminals into our community....And there are more good men like him.....Some have left the force because of "Changes" in the policing community. Some stay.OK, so we have found a perfect soul that has never made a mistake or broken a law, that your willing to allow the privilege of policing your actions. This retired chief didn't care so much that the cop in question had done something wrong, but rather that "any attorney worth his salt could beat any case the guy worked because of his situation." Okey dokey. Double-standard, anyone?
This is true. I don't know you, or the trail you have walked. Nor do you know me or mine. Why not take a look in the mirror yourself, and see that you may have a little grudge against police because you had one run-in with an officer that you thought was bad, and have allowed that to cloud your judgement.