I didn't have my gun

[Three Bars]

In regards to a statement someone made in this thread:
"CHL is for your defense, not the defense of others"

To set the record straight, here is a quote from Or. Statute 161.209:
"Use of physical force in defense of a person....or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use of unlawful physical force..."

So the law clearly states a CHL holder can come to the defense of others.

 

[40calruler]

You're welcome to think whatever you want. I served in the Marines from 1968 through 1970 with a Westpac tour. I was a firefighter in L.A. for 24 years, was a task force commander in the Los Angeles riots and the commanding officer of the arson and explosives unit. You can think me a coward if you wish, I have nothing to prove to you. In my opinion you would have to be a 24 karat moron to get involved in that situation. If you are that stupid then enjoy yourself.

My guess is 40 years ago you would have had a different response. Either way as you said you have served your time.

 

[40calruler]

In regards to a statement someone made in this thread:
"CHL is for your defense, not the defense of others"

To set the record straight, here is a quote from Or. Statute 161.209:
"Use of physical force in defense of a person....or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use of unlawful physical force..."

So the law clearly states a CHL holder can come to the defense of others.

I think the point has been made that there are those of us that are "Rambo" although I think Rambo might disagree with the argument we have made against a gun and for pepper spray. Then there are those who just can't or wont help.
Whichever you are will not change who I am or the others here who have said they would not let something go on that they had a chance at stopping. If you are not willing I see no reason to be defensive about it unless you question yourself and why you would not have the courage to help.

 

[NoFlinch]

......... Marines from 1968 through 1970 .......... firefighter........... for 24 years, task force commander .......... commanding officer ..........24 karat moron to get involved in that situation. If you are that stupid then enjoy yourself.

I was none of the above, I was a Banker for 24+++ years, but the last sentence "Net's it Out".....

 

[The Heretic]

The CHL is for YOUR defense, not the defense of others. Unless you or a family member in your close proximity is in mortal danger, do not draw. Remember, its a permit to carry concealed, not a permit to draw or fire. Either of these last two actions most likely will earn you a court date.

A CHL is, as you said, a permit for carrying a handgun concealed.

To that end, you can use the handgun for target shooting or hunting (in a place where that is permitted and legal), nothing at all, or for your defense, or the defense of any other innocent person, whether you know them or not.

I would dare say a woman getting a beat down by one or more males (not to mention six) is presumably an "innocent person" who needs help in her defense.

An argument can be made that if more than one of those males turned on you, then you may be legitimately in fear for your life. I may be 6' 6" tall and #250, but I am also 60 years old with a bad back that goes out if I so much as sneeze hard - so while I may seem intimidating to smaller people, some street tough may decide that they just could take me - much less six of them.

And besides providing the defense for an innocent, I don't have to be in fear for my life, just in fear of serious harm - ditto for the innocent.

I don't think a jury would have a problem with someone coming to the defense of a woman getting beat on by six males. If they do, then you should get a better lawyer because he/she surely isn't worth a damn.

 

[semperfi68to70]

My guess is 40 years ago you would have had a different response. Either way as you said you have served your time.

10 years ago my response would have been different. I was involved in something that literally cost me tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees and nearly the financial well being of my family. It involved the defense of another person in a much different scenario. I was right, but I suffered greatly for being right. I just don't feel like I have the right to jeopardize the futures of people who depend on me.

Sorry about the rant earlier. This kind of struck a nerve.

 

[The Heretic]

Of course you have to consider the well being of your family, and I agree they generally come first, but that is the difference - some people will help regardless of the cost or the risk. If we only helped someone when we are assured there is no risk or cost to us, then is there any altruism in that? If we only do the right thing when there is no risk to us, where is the morality in that?

Do we admire the person who sits back and pushes a button in some safe bunker that causes a rocket to land on the enemy, or do we admire the warfighter who goes out and slogs through the mud to carry the fight to the enemy? What would they do? What would my ancestors who did this think of my holding back?

Who would have taken care of my daughter when she was six years old and I was out rescuing people if I had gotten hurt or killed? I didn't think of that at the time - maybe I should have - but I didn't.

As I said, it is each person's decision, but what would my daughter think of me today if I didn't help a woman getting beat down like that because I didn't want to risk getting hurt so I would be around to take care of her? Would she be proud of me then?

You know what? I would bet if my daughter saw something like that going down, she just might wade into it herself. I know for a fact she wouldn't just stand by and do nothing. Can I do less?

 

[semperfi68to70]

Of course you have to consider the well being of your family, and I agree they generally come first, but that is the difference - some people will help regardless of the cost or the risk. If we only helped someone when we are assured there is no risk or cost to us, then is there any altruism in that? If we only do the right thing when there is no risk to us, where is the morality in that?

Do we admire the person who sits back and pushes a button in some safe bunker that causes a rocket to land on the enemy, or do we admire the warfighter who goes out and slogs through the mud to carry the fight to the enemy? What would they do? What would my ancestors who did this think of my holding back?

Who would have taken care of my daughter when she was six years old and I was out rescuing people if I had gotten hurt or killed? I didn't think of that at the time - maybe I should have - but I didn't.

As I said, it is each person's decision, but what would my daughter think of me today if I didn't help a woman getting beat down like that because I didn't want to risk getting hurt so I would be around to take care of her? Would she be proud of me then?

You know what? I would bet if my daughter saw something like that going down, she just might wade into it herself. I know for a fact she wouldn't just stand by and do nothing. Can I do less?

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Mine differs from yours, but it is still your right to feel anyway you wish. Just to answer your questions; When I was a Marine I was 19 years old. I had no one depending on me for anything. Had I been KIA I am sure my parents would have suffered my loss but not financially.

When I was a firefighter there were generous death benefits had I been a LODD and the kids would have been able to go to college and lead "normal" lives. When I was in the arson unit I was protected from lawsuits by peace officer status unless I really stepped off the reservation.

If I were sued I was represented by the city and indemnified in case of a loss. I think my kids appreciate the fact that I care more about their well being then that of a stranger. I don't think there is a greater obligation than that of being a parent. I am not afraid of anyone or anything other than not fulfilling that obligation.
As someone else said on this forum; mess with me or my family and I will escort you to the gates of Hell, but I don't stick my nose into other people's business. I sincerely hope it never goes wrong for you or anyone else on this forum.

 

[rick benjamin]

Carry concealed insurance policies
http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...11_1_insurance-policy-nra-homeowners-policies
http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/personal-defense-network/choose-concealed-carry-insurance/
<broken link removed>
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/conc...4304-concealed-carry-liability-insurance.html
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...have-concealed-carry-liability-insurance.html

 

[Three Bars]

In addition to Death and Taxes, the certainties of life now include the civil court lawsuit sure to follow a justified shooting.

 

[40calruler]

I did have to pay a lawyer a lot of money although in the end all of the police harassment and threats was worthless. I was justified in my situation in that it was clear and total defense to draw my weapon. Still I was harassed and told I was going to be having charges pressed by scummy people in law enforcement a while back.
I look back and wish I had not even looked up the lawyer as the DA threw the case out the second he looked at it knowing I was fully in my rights and had done everything by the book. Yet had I not the police harassment would have continued and my lawyer was a bigger bully than the officer was. At least the thousands gave me peace of mind.
That does not stop me from knowing I would do it over again along with anything that has happened since. Most of my situations have involved street punks and homeless crazy people and drawing is not a necessary thing in the situations I have handled downtown. Mace yes, a baton yes. My gun is not going to come back out unless someone is going to be put down for being a threat to my family or even a stranger at the wrong end of a bad guy with a gun and I hope it never comes to that.
I do not and will not feel bad for the people that have been very wrong in their actions and I have stepped in. Part of the reason my wife and kids look up to me is that they know when nobody else is helping someone I always have and will. My kids brag about silly things they do see like people gawking at a dumpster fire under trees and against an apartment complex and me slamming on the brakes to push it away from the trees and building so they do not catch prior to the fire engine arriving. I have no idea what it is but I am not thinking about my well being in any situation that adrenalin takes over. All I think of is the task at hand at that second. I guess as I get older I may start to feel more of those thoughts as some here do. Not yet though.

 

[40calruler]

10 years ago my response would have been different. I was involved in something that literally cost me tens of thousands of dollars in attorney fees and nearly the financial well being of my family. It involved the defense of another person in a much different scenario. I was right, but I suffered greatly for being right. I just don't feel like I have the right to jeopardize the futures of people who depend on me.

Sorry about the rant earlier. This kind of struck a nerve.

semper I did mean when I said you have done your job. My father has the same feelings as you. A fireman for 27 years and I respect that he and you have saved hundred or thousands of lives risking your own. Fireman have my total respect as they willingly go to work knowing every day they are in danger but put strangers before themselves.
He as well looks at the world in a way that he does not want to lose all he has because of some scum bag. After how many times he has stepped up I have no argument to make against that thought process.

 

[rick benjamin]

Risk management
Is it reasonable, prudent?
Are my skill sets congruent with the issue at hand?
Triage

 

[Jessie Russell]

That's a tough one. I think even though your intentions would have been good, I don't believe that PPD would have thoughts. But as we're tought that in those cases we are justified in pulling our weapon. This is a difficult situation to say what one would do.

 

[NoFlinch]

....I don't believe that PPD would have thoughts.

The Paradise Police Dept wouldn't have thoughts??????

HuH?

I think Jesse would think..........................................

 

[40calruler]

The Paradise Police Dept wouldn't have thoughts??????

HuH?

I think Jesse would think..........................................

Downtown Police have thoughts? I have met a couple good eggs but that has not made me love dealing with the other few that have been jerks to everyone even the victim of a situation. One cop was letting me have it for macing a crazed guy that punched an employee and telling me it is not my job and I should have waited blah blah blah....Yes I will wait while my crew member gets pummeled by a tweaker. Sure.

In that situation another ranking officer came and decided it best he speak to me and was very polite as he understood protecting my crew. The officer who was a jerk turned his attention to the maced guy he had accused me of going too far with and the guy started swing at the jerk cop calling him the N word although he was white. My employee is black and the guy was blinded by mace so at that point he had decided even the cop that tried to rinse his face with water was going to get a beat down. Saying I went to far led to the cop overly beating the tweaker into submission. Way overkill. Still shoving his elbow into the back of his neck after the cuffs already had been placed. Just a jerk cop with a temper in the end. I told him the guy was plenty subdued and he responded that he was the one with the badge.
Some cops are easy and great to deal with but man I cannot stand the power trip of a cop after the bad guy is already subdued by me and no further pain was necessary as he may have been swinging but his eyes swollen shut should have made the cop a little less hostile with him since he knew he was just taking wild swings at air.
I think his reaction to me was so defensive because I was pissed it took 8 minutes after the call for a car to arrive. I called in that a guy was trying to attack anyone in sight and was down from mace for the moment and that was not enough to even get the sirens going. Just a slow drive and maybe stopping a guy for not using his blinker on the way. Now that cop ignores me and I do the same with him. Might have had to do with him finding out that he was not the only one turning in a report on the incident and felt a little less power. Who knows I am just happy he tells the other guys or gals to talk to me now.

 

[Three Bars]

I can understand how LEOs working downtown Portland can become hardened, and callous, but to suggest waiting for the law to arrive, and not to take action, if you're able, to stop an injustice just flies in the face of common sense.

More and more with every passing year more people in public office, or service, seem to be intent on taking away our God given right to self defense, and defense of others w1rongly being attacked.

A far wiser soul than me said there is no deed more noble than to come to the aid of your fellow man when needed.
I'm not suggesting being the Lone Ranger, but if you can help in some way, without un do risk, I think many folks will then feel an obligation to do so.
This has been accepted social behavior here in America until just recently.

 

[NoFlinch]

It took me YEARS to accept living my life with this philosophy;

"You can do what's right, or you can do what's smart".

Sometimes it's smart to do what's right, sometimes the opposite, but I consider the above when warranted.

 

[Sstrand]

Three Bars
The Lone Ranger and Tonto were in downtown Portland and witnessed a similar event.
The Lone Ranger said, "Come on Tonto, we can help!"
Tonto reapplied, "What you mean we, white eyes?"

Sheldon

 

[salmonriverjohn]

.40,, just what the hell do you do for a living anyway?
I mean no dissrespect, but curiosity has got me old boy.