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I didn't have my gun

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by clee109, Jul 26, 2014.

  1. clee109

    clee109 Portland, OR Member

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    I was downtown in Portland the other day meeting with a potential client. I don't carry to client meetings as it's business related and most of who I work with happen to be anti-gunners... So carrying a firearm (even if concealed) with the slight probability of being found isn't good for my business :).

    As I was driving back out of downtown I went past the food carts on Alder. Right on the corner in broad daylight six "street kids" were beating the crap out of a woman. I couldn't tell if the woman they were beating was one of them or not. People were just standing around gawking, one one guy was trying to stop the fight but to no avail. He would pull one off go to get the other off and the one he just pulled would hop back in.

    Finally someone screamed "I called the police" and they started to scatter. The woman looked pretty bad off though.

    I didn't have my gun and felt helpless to help the woman. Though I think to myself, if I did have my gun, that in downtown Portland I would have been hauled to jail for breaking up the fight and keeping the kids there until the police arrived. You know the whole "your gun is for yours and your families protection only" thing and PPD doesn't feel to friendly towards us CCW people.

    What would you have done in a similar situation? And please, no Rambo responses. Be serious.

    The lesson I learned is carry always, everywhere, all the time. Even around the anti-gunners, if they don't appreciate the fact I choose to protect myself and my kin, then I don't need their business. That could have been me jumped by these kids...

    Thoughts?
     
  2. soberups

    soberups Newberg Well-Known Member

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    Only as an absolute last resort...like if I saw a weapon being used or if it looked as though the victim might actually die...would I intervene in a fight with my gun drawn. The liability is too great, and in most cases you don't have all the information on what is actually going on. I am not a cop and my first responsibility is for my own safety and that of my wife and family. This would be a situation where something like pepper spray might be a better option. I might also stand at a safe distance, with gun in hand but pointed downward, and loudly announce that they police have been called.
     
  3. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    A can of pepper spray might have been appropriate, I know it worked for me in a similar situation.
     
  4. chemist

    chemist Beaverton OR Well-Known Member

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    Tough call, no easy answers. I've intervened before when I saw a helpless old guy getting beat down, and cooled the situation without the threat of additional violence. I was unarmed then; I might have been more reluctant, not less, if I had been carrying.

    If the PPD/prosecutor wants to paint you as a vigilante aching for a fight, there's nothing you can do to prove otherwise. It's all too easy to flip the switch on some ordinary citizen who intervenes, calling him a villain instead of a hero, just because he had his own weapon on him.

    I like to think that my first thought would be the defense of a helpless stranger suffering a violent assault, but I just don't know. The right thing to do would be to jump in and worry about legal consequences later, but you'll have to make the decision yourself, depending on circumstances and what your gut tells you.
     
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  5. Sstrand

    Sstrand La Grande OR Well-Known Member

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    The first question to ask: . . . Why are you living and/or working in the cesspool known as Portland???

    Sheldon
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  6. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    He didn't say he lived there.

    I don't live there, but to pay my mortgage and put food on the plate, I travel into downtown Portland 5 times a week.

    To the OP - you could keep your gun in a secure locked box in the car.

    That doesn't solve the problem of deciding when or if to use it, but at least then you have the choice. Better to have it and not need it...
     
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  7. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Wow! It really has to be life or death, sounds cold, but provable life or death! You can't stick your gun into a void caused by a lack of LE!
    Also, to me, it's situational, I'm going to react differently to three street people beating down another street person than a violent rape or mugging of what appears to be a solid citizen. I like the idea of getting to the back of the crowd and yelling "the police are HERE!!!" I'm not drawing until the above mentioned criteria are met! I've broken up two one sided fights over the years and I certainly didn't gently grasp a sholder and say "now,now!" that was a different time and a person wouldn't be jailed for cracking a couple ribs in a good cause!:(
     
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  8. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    I just cannot help myself but to at least do something in a situation like you describe. I have mace and could use that but would have my gun so long as it was within reach just in case. I work overnight down in that area often and it gets really bad there then.
    I worked for an employer that wanted to dictate gun carrying as yours does and I regret ever listening after a similar situation but with the street punks having weapons happened to me. Never again will I let someone tell me what is best for my safety and my employees safety. Likely I would have not thrown guys off the woman as you described a guy doing I would have knocked them off...those people do not expect anyone to stand up and put up a fight and when you do...well usually when you do they back down and run. I always yell I called the cops and then prepare for anything in those situations. Mace is your best friend downtown but a gun is your secret mistress that you know is there if you need some extra love to handle the situation. The cops can be angry but 6 on one is easily defined as "I felt my life was in danger". I would rather have a innocent woman walk away and me face 12 than just stand by and watch a beating of a woman...that is someones wife, daughter, and maybe she just happened to tell them no to a smoke or change or whatever set them off.
     
  9. clee109

    clee109 Portland, OR Member

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    Thanks for the input so far everyone. I'm self employed and the majority of my clients are downtown. Luckily I don't have to venture there too often.

    Sounds like I need to add a non lethal means of defense to my EDC. What do you all recommend?
     
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  10. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Sgt. Nambu

    "Street person" or not, I doubt the woman deserved the beating she was getting. especially from multiple people.

    That could have been my ex-wife (she has been on the street a few times), and while I try to avoid her as much as possible (mental health problems), I don't think she deserves a beat down like that.

    Street people may have put themselves in the situations they are in now, but few deserve any kind of violence like that, and they are people too.

    If that was your child or sister, who had found herself on the street, would you want a stranger to just stand by or otherwise be less inclined to help her?
     
  11. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    Heretic it sounds as though you have a good bit of knowledge on street people. Many of us have someone in our family that have gone that route through mental illness and or drugs. That definately does not mean they deserve to be stared at while being beaten. I will never understand how someone can stand and watch if they have the means to do something about it. The OP had no means but many do and still because they are afraid of consequences to them they stand idle. Is it really fair that one wrong punch and a person can die since some believe they should pick and choose who they protect? That is what they police do as they do not respond to many of the violent situations downtown since there are so many. So that leaves you or me to help a helpless person. I know I sleep better doing all I could.
    To the OP i recommend the police issue spray. It comes in a small bottle or a slightly larger and has tear gas and mace mixture in it. I cannot remember the name but I am sure google will tell you what the police have on their belt. Careful to make sure you are not in the wind...if you are prepare to cry. It hurts bad even in a small mist in the wind so you can imagine what a spray to the face does. I saw a guy go from beating an employee of mine to his face being red and swollen like a lobster in less than 10 seconds...he was so cracked out he kept swinging at thin air until someone "helped him" to the ground.
     
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  12. Sstrand

    Sstrand La Grande OR Well-Known Member

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    Help me understand.
    Some of you voluntarily drop into a snake pit like Indian Jones in "Raiders of the Lost Ark?"
    If that is true, may I suggest you schedule an appointment with your shrink as your earliest convenience.

    Sheldon
     
  13. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    Some would rather take a risk with snakes than cower in fear of them when a helpless person is down there. I can fight the snakes...if they cannot then yes I will likely jump in. Nobody deserves to die or be beaten just because we might get hurt if we help them. Crowds play follow the leader more often than not. They see someone not afraid to tangle with a snake and they jump in to help...at least that is my experience. Snakes is a a good term for the guys downtown that do this stuff. My guess is there are not lots of skin head gangs and street punks cracked out just walking or skateboarding the streets freely. There are many downtown.
     
  14. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    By the way...Had a shrink. We did not agree on the ways of life in general while she went home to the west hills and I went back to the nasty SW Portland to make a living. The shrink lived in a fantasy world where all you have to do is tell someone to calm down and talk to them. Try talking a crack head out of trying to take your wallet. It goes much better when they have to speak into a microphone with 15 loud speakers in it.
     
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  15. soberups

    soberups Newberg Well-Known Member

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    Bear in mind that if it is a domestic violence situation, often times the victim will turn on her rescuer. Abuse victims do this as a survival tactic because once the rescuers are gone her abuser will likely start in on her again and it will be worse for her if she helped the rescuer in any way. Throw drugs and alcohol into the mix and it means that you and your gun are wading into a chaotic, confused and dangerous situation.
     
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  16. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    Guns should be your last resort. Mace is a good friend. Though it is still a weapon and you better be sure you want to use it before spraying it. Not much domestic violence I have run into. Just people whacked out and shooting/smoking who knows what up in stairwells and such that do not take kindly to being asked to leave.
     
  17. Sstrand

    Sstrand La Grande OR Well-Known Member

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    Let me clarify . . . I wasn't referring to helping someone.
    What I can't understand is anyone subjecting themselves to the "SNAKE PIT" CALLED PORTLAND.
    Leave there, get out . . . get away while there is still time!!!

    Sheldon
     
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  18. 40calruler

    40calruler Lake Oswego Well-Known Member

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    Well THAT I agree with. If I had a way to get a job that paid anything close to mine outside of downtown I would never go down there. It has become worse than people have a clue about. Night time is like hell down there. Never know what demons are around the corner.
     
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  19. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Whoa wait one! I'm talking about my own thoughts, feelings and experiences, having nothing to do with the OP's! Similar situations, not exact! I can say that I have rescued a damsel, nor have I said that I would do nothing. I said that I would not stick my gun into a situation unless warranted. So preach to yourself pal.
     
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  20. MikeE

    MikeE Portland Well-Known Member

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    The guy who yelled "I called the cops" had it right. Mace could be your plan B. Pulling someone off and kicking the crap out of him if you can do that quickly - C. Pulling out a firearm to stop a fight is a very bad idea and wouldn't help anyone. If mine comes out, I'm shooting because my life is in danger.