I didn't have my gun

[Certaindeaf]

I Know, When People Don't Use Paragraphs, It's Kinda Distracting.. Kinda Like When People Write Like This.. And It Happens. or even the dreaded bopping along and then bow!.. a Randomly capitalized word. some people these days!

 

[NoFlinch]

I will and do when I use my computer. On my phone you will have to ignore the "rants" as its hard to tell if I spaced it down enough.

So, what you're saying is that you are not spaced out????????

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

"I Didn't Have My Gun." Perfect title for a series of pro gun ads someone needs to make!

As for your particular situation I can't say, everybody's perception is different. It would have to be an absolute life threatening last resort before I pulled a weapon against an unknown situation like that.

My first instinct would be to yell "here comes a cop!" to hopefully scatter or distract them at least. Then reassess.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I don't think the OP is saying he would've pulled his gat had he had it on him at that particular point in time..
I think he's more saying that he was in/realized that he was in condition white and the ways of the world were shown to him, firsthand, from afar/from the safety of his automobile.

 

[The Heretic]

If you have the means to help someone and choose to just stand by and watch then yes I believe you are a coward and a sheep for thinking it is the cops job and not yours to help your own community.

I wouldn't call someone a coward or a "sheep" for not helping.

My philosophy is that I don't owe anything to anyone else in this regard.

I would do such things solely for selfish reasons; to make the world a better place for myself and my family, and for the pleasure I get from knowing I did something to help someone else.

I do not agree with the philosophy that a person has some kind of duty to help others (I am not inferring this is what you are saying - just that others have used this argument). "Duty" is an obligation. Obligations are not inherent in our existence - obligations come from voluntary actions. Unless I somehow do something that incurs an obligation to someone else, then I am not obligated to that person. If I meet a person on the street that I don't know, that I have never interacted with before, that I have never directly impacted with my actions, I have no obligations to them simply by our mutual presence on this earth.

And yet, socialists/neo-liberals argue that we have a duty to others, by our simple mutual presence, to "help" others - and they enforce that argument through government by taking money from our paychecks to give to others.

Just wanted to be clear where I stood on this.

I allow that others may feel differently about helping others - I especially understand the argument that their first duty is to their loved ones and family - and to a point I agree with that. But I would still feel compelled to help a woman getting beat down by a number of street people and I would be willing to pay the price for that compulsion.

 

[etrain16]

When it comes to stepping in to situations like this, I don't see that there really is a right or wrong answer. Now, if you see a crime going down and you don't at least call 911, then I wonder why you couldn't do that considering everyone has the means to do so. But as for jumping in and getting in the mix, that's a judgment call that may have little to do with someone being a 'sheeple' or not.

Say, for example, that I encountered that same situation and I had my 7-year-old daughter with me - just the two of us. Well, my first duty is to protect her. And jumping into a 6-on-1 fight while leaving her standing there isn't exactly a good idea. Sure I could leave her with a stranger, but that's a potential threat right there. Plus, if something happened to me in that fight, then what? Who cares for my daughter then? And who's to say that one person jumping in would be able to stop it? Even if your an MMA guy, you may at best be able to take on maybe 2-3 guys, leaving 3 to continue wailing on the victim.

There is just so much that has to be considered before you step in. I've stepped in to 2 fights myself, each time, it turned out fine. In one case, I was bigger than the bad guy, so he backed down pretty quickly. The 2nd time, the guy was easily a match for me, but I caught him off guard and that allowed me to take the upper hand, lock his arms behind him and pin him up against a wall until he calmed down. Was it the right choice? Only the aftermath can really answer that. I ended up uninjured in each of those episodes, so I was able to go about my day like normal. But those both happened before I had my daughter - and my desire to jump in and risk myself to do 'good' has been modified by the need to protect myself so I can continue to protect and raise her.

And finally I'll say this. I've been told time after time by instructors - if you have a gun on you, you have a greater responsibility to avoid trouble. Jumping into a group of 6 hopped up street thugs while you have a gun on your hip is probably a very poor choice to make - all you need is to get pinned down by a couple of those guys while one gets to your gun - then you've made a bad situation worse.

Like many others, I find it hard to stand by when someone is getting pounded on. It goes against everything I feel as a guy. But I have to consider that my actions affect more than just myself. If I get pounded to a pulp or killed, then I've left my family without a provider. Then who takes care of them? It's a tough call, but sometimes, I have to consider my family first, strangers second. With that in mind, I would have at least called 911 and perhaps seen if I could gather a number of bystanders to try and step in as a group - perhaps a show of force that way could have disbanded them. Unfortunately in downtown PDX, you're probably not likely to find many folks that would want to get involved in that way.

 

[NoFlinch]

All you people who have broken up fights....where the hell do you hang out?

I haven't seen someone fighting for YEARS.

I haven't Been in a fight since high school.

I look at people fighting each other as neanderthals in the first place.

 

[LyleLovett666]

Just learned the same lesson on Monday. I left work to get some lunch & was unsure where I was going. Since a few pubs were on the list I decided to leave my heater at work. Walking up Ballard ave(seattle) I spotted the guy walking toward me about a block away & could tell he had a busted spring. I moved to the other side of the sidewalk just as he came within about four feet of me. Just then he did some crazy,twirling flying fist move at me. I saw it coming so he never got close. He stared at me for a few second then continued on his way. Luckily things went no further,but lesson learned.

 

[etrain16]

All you people who have broken up fights....where the hell do you hang out?

I haven't seen someone fighting for YEARS.

I haven't Been in a fight since high school.

I look at people fighting each other as neanderthals in the first place.

For me, incident #1 I referred to in my post above was a next-door neighbor - tough 'guy' beating up on his girlfriend (don't live in that neighborhood any longer). Incident #2 happened at a McDonald's in Oregon City of all places - 'neanderthal' threw a punch at a young guy holding his daughter, sending them both to the ground - argument was over the play equipment. Both happened 10+ years ago. True, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I haven't been presented with something like that in a while, and I regularly go to downtown PDX for business. I personally hate fighting and I'm glad to avoid getting into one.

 

[Certaindeaf]

All you people who have broken up fights....where the hell do you hang out?

I haven't seen someone fighting for YEARS.

I haven't Been in a fight since high school.

I look at people fighting each other as neanderthals in the first place.

Kill your internet, you Australopithecus you.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Just learned the same lesson on Monday. I left work to get some lunch & was unsure where I was going. Since a few pubs were on the list I decided to leave my heater at work. Walking up Ballard ave(seattle) I spotted the guy walking toward me about a block away & could tell he had a busted spring. I moved to the other side of the sidewalk just as he came within about four feet of me. Just then he did some crazy,twirling flying fist move at me. I saw it coming so he never got close. He stared at me for a few second then continued on his way. Luckily things went no further,but lesson learned.

No one likes getting fisted.. probably. I don't live in Seattle though so.. just a guess

 

[NoFlinch]

Kill your internet, you Australopithecus you.

Translated this MUST mean;
"Turn off your internet, because you are so intelligent you don't need it. I'll call you an Australopithecus because they were far ahead of their time, in the evolution of humans, just as you are."

 

[Certaindeaf]

oh you

 

[FAL]

We are not sworn law enforcement officers (unless you happen to be), so in this situation, you had better call one - and then, optionally, physically assist the victim in their defense against the assailants. Now if one of the assailants pulls a weapon on you, and he has the ability and opportunity mortally attack you and you feel as though your life is in jeopardy, you are defensible to draw and fire.

The CHL is for YOUR defense, not the defense of others. Unless you or a family member in your close proximity is in mortal danger, do not draw. Remember, its a permit to carry concealed, not a permit to draw or fire. Either of these last two actions most likely will earn you a court date. And probably the DA in this situation would ask "Did your carrying a handgun give you the confidence to physically attack the persons detaining this woman - neither of which parties you previously knew?"

And remember, the assailant you go up against may be expert in disarming a person holding a handgun - and then using it on you. That is one reason you don't brandish or give any other indication that you're carrying. When you draw, you should have already made the decision to fire.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I remember when Jesus Christ was crucified/murdered. lol
I understand the bleating "neigh" (bah) sayers. such good times, baby!

 

[40calruler]

I think most have made the gun argument clear as far as knowing it is a bad move to draw in a situation like this. A few people including myself have said the gun is a bad idea in jumping into a situation like this. Mace is the first option if a weapon is needed as I said I would and have had to do.
We have an obligation to our family to be safe and as far as having a child with you I can say I would rethink my whole lot of posts if I had my 8 or 10 year old daughter with me. Of course you need to stay with them and keep them safe first.
As far as people fighting not being a regular thing I suppose that depends on who you are and where you work. If you work in an area that has a lot of drugged out little gangs of punks you will encounter a lot of fights as I do. However when these guys are fighting each other I could care less as they are scum and nobody needs to help any of them. Beating on a woman 6 on 1 is a whole different world.
Heretic I am not calling anyone a coward or sheep for not jumping in if they have a reasonable excuse to avoid it. However what I said was if you have the means to help someone you should. With your kid you do not have the means. Outnumbered some do not have the wherewithal to find a weak spot to hit the crew. Everyone is different but if you do have the means and choose to ignore it in a situation like this then yes I think it is a cowards move.
When i am down there I have a gun, mace, baton, heavy maglight, and a knife on my belt....well gun in my pocket or IWB. If in my car I have other options as well. I have broken up a number of fights and never drawn my gun during those situations. I had 3 guys turn their attention to me after harassing a woman at a bus stop and after the "lead" tough guy took a run at me and got quickly knocked flat on his back his friends helped him up and they bolted. Throwing a punch is the last thing I want to do but in some of these situation you have to decide how much force you need to use to protect yourself and also protect the people around. If you can simply put a good hold on a guy until the cops arrive I do so. If I am charged I hit hard. If it is a group I do have a quicker response for help than most of you.
I have my assistant with me 75% of the time and he is a 5'10" 200lb guy who has my back and I have his at all times. Along with other members of my crew that are all around downtown I can likely have 4 guys within 2 minutes to help me which I admit gives me an unfair advantage over a lot of you. If I grab my radio and call for help I can hear footsteps within seconds most of the time and know I am not alone. All of whom I have issued cans of mace to wear on their belt with their radios.
In the OPs situation it would not have been 6 on one which is why I say I would have jumped in. One guy was throwing these guys off and they continued to ignore him. That makes it 2 on 5 or 6 and evens the odds a whole lot looking in and knowing they are focused on the woman and not the single guy trying to help. That is a big advantage going in to see they are so focused that likely your mace will not even be noticed until after it is sprayed.
Everyone has to make a choice as to who is important enough to protect. For me any woman or kid who is helpless deserves help as I would be looking for the people who just watched as one of my family was attacked. My employees know I will always help them no matter the situation which is why they are willing to help me whenever the call is made.
You are not a coward if you have a good reason to stay out of a bad spot like age, injury, having a child with you. However if you are alone and just stand by and stare then I do believe that makes someone a coward. Of course we all will do more to protect our family and go to more extreme lengths but that does not mean a lot of us will ignore a stranger in need. I want a better community as much as the next guy and allowing something like that to go down is just not in my genes and keeps these kind of punks thinking they can just get away with a public beating of a woman.

 

[Three Bars]

As I previously stated; downtown PDX having more souls per square mile than any where else in the state. Using your firearm is ill` advised...so many things can go South if you do.
As a last ditch effort to save your skin when no other options are available, then, and only then should you employ your firearm.

I think we're all thinking that pepper spray would be the preferred weapon in this scenario.

A good point was made earlier concerning retention of your firearm, and taking necessary precautions to make sure you don't have it taken away from you.

I firmly believe that to be a responsible CHL holder an added layer of training is warranted.

 

[NoFlinch]

Being that downtown PDX has more souls per square mile thaqn a

I agree 100%!!

 

[YoungBlood]

In this situation instead of trusting some stranger who claimed to call the police I would have taken the five minutes to dial 911 and report it, once reported, walk away or stand around to verify they show up. Either way its good food for thought for the rest of us, Rambo or not

 

[semperfi68to70]

I agree with all of that. Our world would be a lot better if more people acted rather than just posting what they saw on their facebook later that night and taking pictures. It is peoples choice but the reasoning is sometimes a seemingly selfish one.
I could say I have done my share as I know I have compared to most people. I could bow out since I have been on the wrong end of a gun from street punks when jumping in to help my friend being beaten. I could bow out because my sister was shot and killed 3 years ago from trying to help someone.
We all could come up with an excuse that has happened to us or our family to say we have done enough. I will feel I have done enough when I no longer see situation like this and do not have to do anything to stop them. Until then if I am there I will do what I always have and always will when a bully or group is out of line.
If you have the means to help someone and choose to just stand by and watch then yes I believe you are a coward and a sheep for thinking it is the cops job and not yours to help your own community.

You're welcome to think whatever you want. I served in the Marines from 1968 through 1970 with a Westpac tour. I was a firefighter in L.A. for 24 years, was a task force commander in the Los Angeles riots and the commanding officer of the arson and explosives unit. You can think me a coward if you wish, I have nothing to prove to you. In my opinion you would have to be a 24 karat moron to get involved in that situation. If you are that stupid then enjoy yourself.