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"hypothetical" post self defense shooting.

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by parallax, Dec 25, 2008.

  1. parallax

    parallax eugene, or-gun Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Hi all, been a while since i posted. I wanted to ask a question to anyone who has experienced this senario or know someone who has. If you shoot someone and are cleared of any criminal charge( as in self defense, home invasion, etc, etc,),, how often do the surviving shootie( criminal)..sue the shooter(civil suit).. I recall a couple of instances here in eugene, where this has happened,, shooter gets sued by surviving family or surviving gun shot victim for 100's of thousands of dollars, regardless of shooter being in the right. and criminal or surviving family has won the suit. also,, merry christmas!!
     
  2. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Not sure.

    If someone puts a gun in my face and wants to kill me or take my money, the end result is -THEIR- fault.

    If you wrestle an alligator and get eaten, it's your fault.
    If you rob a bank and go to jail, it's your fault.
    If you threaten to kill someone and they kill you first? It's your fault.

    Don't play with Matches!

    I wouldn't pay a single cent from the floor of my truck. :)
     
  3. Sun195

    Sun195 Pugetropolis, WA Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what the answer is to your question, but this is a good reason to have umbrella coverage added to your line of insurance...
     
  4. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    It can happen, which I would suggest 2 things, hopefully before such a thing happens;

    1) Get a million dollar liability insurance policy.

    2) Take time to search out a good attorney versed in the area of use-of-force, the money shelled to chat with one for a couple hours, is money well spent.
     
  5. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    I would pretty much bet on something coming from the civil side from the family or (former) assailant. And if the jury says pay then you pay, that's the rules.

    My own E&O (errors and omissions) coverage is 1 million per incident and 2 million per year limits. Costs about $800 yearly, non-professionals might get by with lots less.

    Wichaka's exactly right, general liability is the specific coverage you need, and a million bucks is a good figure.
     
  6. Sun195

    Sun195 Pugetropolis, WA Well-Known Member

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    There are several interesting discussions about insurance coverage on the High Road - your insurance may not (or may) cover you in the event of a self defense incident. You need to check with your insurance agent, lawyer, and whoever else.

    MillCreek on THR claims to be a risk manager and makes the following statements:

    I have umbrella coverage on my policy - I hope I never have to find out how well it works.
     
  7. finch6013

    finch6013 Oregon City Active Member

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    this thread made me think. I am interested in non lethal bullets of sort that would go in my guns or maybe even in a .22 pistol or something small. Cuz I'm all for self defense but I would hate to kill someone, even if they deserve it
     
  8. OFADAN

    OFADAN Brownsville, OR Well-Known Member

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    The only liablity insurance I'm aware of which will cover a defensive type of "shooting" is a "Self-Defense" rider on an Excessive Personal Liability policy thru the NRA. We hand out applications to every student who graduates from either the BHS or UCF course. Here is the link. http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

    What is Covered

    Provides coverage up to the limit selected for bodily injury or property damage caused by an act of self-defense.
    Cost of civil suit defense is provided in addition to the limit of liability for bodily injury and property damage.
    Criminal Defense Reimbursement for alleged criminal actions involving self-defense when you are acquitted of such criminal charges or the charges are dropped.

    Liability Limit Options

    $100,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
    $250,000 Combined Single Limit with $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
     
  9. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I see this type of thing on most every firearms forum around.

    A lot of folks will talk big about defending themselves until this topic comes up, then I see a lot of the same people start to fold a bit.

    I think there needs to be a better mind set with this type of conversation.

    The least of anyone's worries should be any type of liability. If someone comes into your house and threatens your family, you need to take immediate action to stop the threat.

    Don't let this liability thing get into your head so much that you hesitate and someone gets injured or dies from it.
    This is what truly separates the sheep from the sheepdog.

    It is hard to fight suspects that have no regard for you or your family's well being. They will have nothing to give should you happen to go after them for a liability type suit.

    Stand firm for you and your family, they and yourself deserve nothing less.
     
  10. tac

    tac UK, Oregon and Ontario. Well-Known Member

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    post deleted
     
  11. OFADAN

    OFADAN Brownsville, OR Well-Known Member

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    I'll piggyback with wichaka...

    Abraham Maslow said "if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem starts looking like a nail."

    A firearm is only a tool (hardware)...we are the weapon. Our mindset, skills, tactics, strategy, judgement, and training (all software) are far more important than the tool or tools (hardware). In fact they should be considered part of the tool kit. Too many people think the only way to stop a threat or an attack is shooting them. Granted that is one way, and perhaps may be the only way to end the situation.

    Those whose only training is "shooting" or training on a square range are buildling a one-dimention perspective on self defense. Unfortunately we don't live in the wild west anymore where we can just shoot them and avert the total aftermath.

    In training we train hard in square range work but we also train even harder using real-time, 3D, human scenario based "force-on-force" simulations in OFA's "No Name City & the Adjudicator" to see how effective people deploy their mindset, skills, tactics, strategy, judgement and training. 99.9% of the time when people first start out they "just shoot the threat" because the only tool they have is that hammer! A hammer is often only one options - granted it may be the only option but when there are other equally and more effective options available we need to learn how to use them under extreme stress. The other options when used don't involve hiring an attorney, testifing before a Grand Jury, defending ourselves in a Criminal trial, being hounded by the media, having our friends read about us in the paper and making judgements, being sued, hiring a civil attorney, putting a strain on our close relationship and giving up our lives savings.

    There is more to self defense than owning a gun or even being proficient with a firearm. That is certainly part of it. The liability is part of the equation. Too many of us invest a life savings into "hardware" thinking that is all we need. Hours are spent of this forum talking about the next gun or the next time we get together and shoot. Rarely are there any discussions like we're having now - about other aspects of self defense or other options besides shooting. We also need to invest as much or more in the software. We need to learn and train ourselves to use all our other options first and only use deadly force as our last option not as our only option which unfortunately for many of us that is all we have. Why, because the only tool we have is a hammer.
     
  12. parallax

    parallax eugene, or-gun Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    thank you folks, for all the great input. Straight up.. if this ever happens to me,, i will not hesitate . i will do what i have to do.whether i use hand to hand/knife/brick or gun. but also it is good to know what i might expect to have to go through, should i have to defend myself against some drugged up home invasion person, or attempted carjacking or?...(fill in the blank..).knowledge is power.... thnxs and happy new year....j...:thumbup:
     
  13. OFADAN

    OFADAN Brownsville, OR Well-Known Member

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    The bottom line - "you'll do in the fight what you've done in training and in practice".

    If one doesn't train, and train effectively, then generally they default to "natural behavior" which under stress waffles, dithers, freezes, flights, or fights. If one has trained under realistic simulated conditions, over and over again, then one can have a more predicable outcome. This is why we use the simulator at OFA so people can become seasoned and conditioned to the stress and unpredicable nature of human conflict. After a whiile a person can function rather effectively and calmly under severe conditions.

    If you do not train and prepare a script to speak to the 911 operator, for example, then natural behavior takes charge and generally one defaults to logarrhea - a natural phenomia to those of us inproperly trained - don't ask me how I know this!

    So much to learn and train for - so little time.
     
  14. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    My E&O insurance covers it. You may need to be in bail recovery, a PI or Security contractor to purchase this coverage, however.
     
  15. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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  16. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    This is exactly why I'm enrolling Jenny and I in one or two OFA classes as soon as we get a chance :thumbup:
     
  17. GUN1PDX

    GUN1PDX Portland Metro Member

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    +1, thats exactly what I was told by Dave Davies, my Armed Certification Instructor. He was invloved in a shooting and killed the guy over at Clackamas Town Center. Sorry, don't have the details.
     
  18. Joe Link

    Joe Link Portland, OR Well-Known Member Staff Member Lifetime Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    Excellent post :thumbup:
     
  19. OFADAN

    OFADAN Brownsville, OR Well-Known Member

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    And that is exactly why when people train at OFA we strongly stress in our training and invest significantly more time practicing and perfecting the skill of avoidance and other "non-hammer" tactics and alternatives. Not only do we train in avoidance but we also test students on 'what they actually do' not what they 'tell us they would' do.

    In addition we spend a considerable amount of time training and practicing the "after the shooting is over" tactics so when the fight continues in the courtroom of the media, criminal, and civil arenas then one has a much better chance of surviving all four!
     
  20. robctwo

    robctwo rural North Albany Member

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    My life insurance policy pays out if I guess wrong.

    The family of the assailant will not sue your estate for you getting killed, and will not get anywhere with a claim for emotional damage to your killer by you dying.

    Your family will not collect a dime from the guy who kills you.

    There is at least one thing more important than money in this life.

    Juries are made up of people from your community. If you shoot the guy coming down the hall to your bedroom, you are probably in good shape. If you shoot the guy who threatens you with an butt whipping by him and his friend, even if using deadly force is legally justified, you will be in trouble.

    As I have said before, if you do not know the law, contact an attorney before you get involved in any self defense activities, even non lethal.

    If you are involved in a self defense situation, call the police, report that you were attacked and defended yourself with no additional details. The nice person on 911 will try to get you to talk. If you need to talk, repeat over and over, I would like to consult with my attorney before making a statement. Tell the investigating officers that. Call an attorney. Do not discuss the facts until you have an attorney and a good recording device owned and operated by the attorney present.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2009