Hypothetical bug out grab

[Who The F R U]

I live on the Olympic Peninsula, I've got my stash for virtually any situation within reasonable thinking.

No offense to Glock, but I prefer the Springfield XD's anywhere from 3.3" to 6" service and long guns to be basically a 300 AAC BO, and AR10 version... Did I mention I live about 2 miles from the National Park, have a couple of horses and such...

21 years as a Marine Grunt in various fields, 7 yrs as Chief Instructor @ Mountain Warfare Center, 4 yrs as Chief Instructor Raid Branch, Coronado, 1 year NCOIC SOTG (Special Operations Training Group). 20 months RVN, India/Pakistan War, El Salvador, Desert Storm...

4 yrs with SOF...

Just saying...

_______________________________________________________________________________________
So you meant to say the Croatian Hs2000? Right ?
It's not a Sprig feld
They just bought the rights and copied it.

 

[etrain16]

Situation:
-You have enough time to grab 2 of the following long arms on your way to bug out.
-You have sufficient ammo ready to go for whatever you pick.
-You have a p229 in 9mm on your person
-You have an sp101 in .357 on you.
-Bug out location is the Olympic Peninsula

Long arm options
-Ruger American Predator .308
-Rossi lever 16" in .357
-Remington 870 Express with 18.5" barrel
-Ruger 10/22
-Keltec sub2000 p226 mag version (9mm)

Reading your post and looking at other replies, I expect you meant for folks to respond based solely on the list you gave, yes? So I'll limit my response to just that list (we've got a number of threads on ideal bug-out guns already, no need to rehash my opinions on that here).

First, you do have to ask yourself how much you can/want to carry. Especially when it comes to ammo. And what do you want each gun for? Hunting? Defense? Both?

Second, you obviously need to choose what works best for you - I know you got kind of pushed off of the Keltec Sub2000, but a lot of folks really like them, they are reliable and very compact. I would suggest, since you don't already own one, perhaps find someone that does that might let you try it out first. If you like it, and trust it, then, for you, it's a good choice. My opinion on them or anyone else's doesn't really matter.

Third, I agree with others that stated keeping ammo choices simple and compatible with your handguns, if possible. So while I wouldn't likely go with the Rossi unless it had a nice run through by a gunsmith to make it slick and reliable, it would make a nice pairing with the SP101 - one type of ammo for two guns. That Rossi could serve both as defense and hunting, up to deer, if needed. I don't know that you would be able to go much bigger than deer with .357, but the hunters I've talked to would trust it on a deer. Not everyone would trust a Rossi, so again, you have to know you can fully rely on it before you grab it.

The 870 could be a decent option for defense and possible hunting (tough with the short barrel and no chokes), if you have the right loads. But 12ga ammo is bulky and heavy, so it may not be the best if you're on foot. Still, a shotgun, in the right config with the right ammo, could be quite versatile.

Ultimately you have to answer the question for yourself, but hopefully some of the responses here have helped you to suss out some of the considerations you should think about when making those choices.

 

[The Heretic]

Anyone who isn't considering a 10/22 in their long term plans has a flawed plan in my opinion.

It is the singly best semi .22 there is and you can buy a wheelbarrow of ammo for a few hundred.

And why do I need a semi-auto .22 rimfire?

Am I going to be plinking while trying to "live off the land"?

If I am bugging out, I want a lightweight compact rimfire rifle, and a single shot is just fine for hunting purposes. For the weight difference between a 10/22 and my Pack Rifle, I can carry a lot more ammo, food and water.

 

[The Heretic]

If it's man transported than we enter an entirely different 'what if' scenario.

My assumption is that I will be on foot, if not immediately, then eventually.

If I am not home and I need to get home, it will be because SHTF while I was at work (where I spend 99% of my time away from home), and it will be because of an earthquake. Otherwise I can probably just drive home.

I live at my BOL, so if I need to bug out from there, I will probably wind up on foot eventually.

So my BOB will need to be lightweight and only have the necessities.

 

[Geardo]

Based on your list, .308 + 10/22.

I agree a suppresor would be good for the .22.


Whatever you pick, try strapping all that bubblegum on and walking 10 miles.

I think you will end up dumping the .357 and trading the 10/22 for a single shot, and if you try to carry enough ammo, and walk 10 miles, the .308 Will turn into a .223, and you might look for ultralight options for the .22 stock. I ended up making one out of carbon fiber.


The OP will require fishing gear, and salmon + steelhead gear + bait/lures can get heavy too, you also need a tent big enough to fit your gear and you and keep it dry, or a big tent. + lots of food, and maybe cooking fuel.

Everything adds up.

I can't say I backpack often enough to be "training" but I do it often enough to know that bugging IN is a much better bet.

Stashing 6 months of food and water, and hardening your home to repel invaders, and outfitting you and a partner with a cheap ar15 is really only a $5,000 expense.

 

[No_Regerts]

Situation:
-You have enough time to grab 2 of the following long arms on your way to bug out.
-You have sufficient ammo ready to go for whatever you pick.
-You have a p229 in 9mm on your person
-You have an sp101 in .357 on you.
-Bug out location is the Olympic Peninsula

Long arm options
-Ruger American Predator .308
-Rossi lever 16" in .357
-Remington 870 Express with 18.5" barrel
-Ruger 10/22
-Keltec sub2000 p226 mag version (9mm)

Don't know why the Sig hatred, its a fantastic gun.

I think you're better off than what people are giving you credit for, as far as guns. Your best bet if you have to leave is to be sneaky. You're not going to want to get in any firefights by yourself regardless of what you have, you'll lose.

A 12 gauge shotgun is a versatile weapon. An 18.5 barrel will work well as a defensive weapon, but I'd want it to be as versatile as possible. Id go with a 20 inch model with sights and smooth bore. That will shoot rifled slugs as well as buckshot and bird shot. You now have a short range small game, defensive, and big game weapon. A shotgun setup for a youth with 22 inch barrel or a turkey gun would fit the bill as well.

Of what you have left, Id take the 308. If you can find a defensive position, you could use it with some stand off capability. It would also allow you to hunt.

My question, why the Olympics? Unless you have a boat we arent talking about, getting out there in regular traffic is hard enough. You're crossing several bridges if youbhave to stick to the road.

 

[11Charlie]

I'm already here and have enough for everyone if they can't make it with other guns. So who ever is supposed to be here just needs to get here before I lock everything down.

 

[Bealzybub]

Springfield is the upper end "Taurus" of the industry. What's the last gun they actually invented?

HS2000 - Wikipedia

Easy to copy another companies design......

The Saint?

I've got a copy of that HS2000 and I gotta say it is THE MOST accurate semi auto pistol I've ever put my hands on. Incredible actually. And truth be told, as worthless as 9's are, its what I have in my lightweight bag I take with me on trips out, wherever. I find accuracy to be the key to lethality as compared to any given cartridge size. Of course, and with all due respect, Gabby Giffords did a much better job as a congress"person" after taking one to the melon with a 9.

 

[DuneHopper]

Some .22 is definitely better than others in terms of reliability, but if we are entering the 'what if' land of conversation. Adding a 10/22 and a barrel of ammo to the mix adds a significant amount of options more than simply an AR and some .223

Even if you are dead set against the 10/22 for whatever reason, a .22 BCG and a few mags multiplies your .223 chambered AR's longevity because those brick(s) of .22 will be around a lot longer than whatever amount of mags of .223 is brought.

If it's car transported, 5000 of .22 rounds can easily be transported in a shoebox sized container. That volume simply cannot be ignored.

If it's man transported than we enter an entirely different 'what if' scenario.

Still, Preps are saying thats a no go on the 22LR, your information simply doesn't hold up to hard cold facts that the 22LR is not reliable. Doesn't matter if one buys CCI they are all prone to fail. See you are focusing on amounts of ammo, with a high failure rate, and I am talking about firearms and ammo both with very low failure rates. See if you are carrying your 22LR rifle cause you are hunting and come across hostiles well that wont end well, if I am hunting with a .223 rifle I can both hunt and defend very well even at a distance protect and supply food. I am sure many will grab a 22LR rifle but experts are saying no after many years saying yes due to all the testing to see what works. So yes the volume can be ignored.

Thats like driving a Truck with bald tires and you have a bunch of old spare bald tires in the back of the truck, meanwhile my truck has all new heavy duty truck tires, I can go more places and do it much better for longer then a truck with many bald tires can. Sorry seen the studies and won't be carrying any 22LR. Do this take your 22LR up to the range and fire 1000 rds and count the failures and think if that was life or death? There is a reason people also can not deny a revolver is the best defense firearm, it works, it works all the time and failure rates can only be counted on reloads thats how reliable it is. The AR is also very reliable for a simple platform, as mentioned I think the SKS is better but ammo is scarce in a SHTF situation.

 

[Geardo]

Still, Preps are saying thats a no go on the 22LR, your information simply doesn't hold up to hard cold facts that the 22LR is not reliable. Doesn't matter if one buys CCI they are all prone to fail. See you are focusing on amounts of ammo, with a high failure rate, and I am talking about firearms and ammo both with very low failure rates. See if you are carrying your 22LR rifle cause you are hunting and come across hostiles well that wont end well, if I am hunting with a .223 rifle I can both hunt and defend very well even at a distance protect and supply food. I am sure many will grab a 22LR rifle but experts are saying no after many years saying yes due to all the testing to see what works. So yes the volume can be ignored.

Thats like driving a Truck with bald tires and you have a bunch of old spare bald tires in the back of the truck, meanwhile my truck has all new heavy duty truck tires, I can go more places and do it much better for longer then a truck with many bald tires can. Sorry seen the studies and won't be carrying any 22LR. Do this take your 22LR up to the range and fire 1000 rds and count the failures and think if that was life or death? There is a reason people also can not deny a revolver is the best defense firearm, it works, it works all the time and failure rates can only be counted on reloads thats how reliable it is. The AR is also very reliable for a simple platform, as mentioned I think the SKS is better but ammo is scarce in a SHTF situation.

Not buying this. Yeah you wouldn't want to go to war with a .22, but most hunting SHTF woukd be small game. A .223 is gonna shred rabbits and squirrel.

With A .22 can you can carry 500 rds super easy, but really that is only a year of food max. You would want close to 1k. Just can't carry that much .223.

It is easy to sling my carbon fiber stocked single shot .22 and keep my AR ready, or visa-vera.

A single shot or bolt action .22 running high quality ammo like cci is going to be very reliable.

 

[41mag]

The reason I even mention a SKS is sure power, indestructible nature of them as well as simplicity, so if one didnt have and
AR I would choose a SKS over a AK-47 or anything else.

The only SKS I ever had was a 'special Chinese Sniper model'; it proved to be the leading example of singularly poorest least reliable unfit for any kind of critical role, of any long arm I've ever had.

It rather represented the low end of the 'Unreliable Taurus Syndrome' mentioned widely in the blogs of such matters.

Our personal conclusions based on our own experience can not be reliably extended to a general solution. That's why we have so many potential solutions for the intricate scenarios our 'survival prep' hobby continues to generate.

I've known a couple of true outback solo survivalist types who spend most of their time beyond the grid with little more than what they can carry on their backs. SKS was not part of their kit. One did favor his personally built Pennsyltucky style muzzle loader. The other wouldn't talk of his firearms.

What they did have, was skills and gear for fire making, staying dry and warm, trapping & foraging, and how to adapt/improvise/overcome. They also displayed ability to make astonishingly sharp edges on their belt knives.

Personally I'd never survive long in the environment they chose, whether I had SKS or 'other'.

 

[American123]

Still, Preps are saying thats a no go on the 22LR, your information simply doesn't hold up to hard cold facts that the 22LR is not reliable. Doesn't matter if one buys CCI they are all prone to fail. See you are focusing on amounts of ammo, with a high failure rate, and I am talking about firearms and ammo both with very low failure rates. See if you are carrying your 22LR rifle cause you are hunting and come across hostiles well that wont end well, if I am hunting with a .223 rifle I can both hunt and defend very well even at a distance protect and supply food. I am sure many will grab a 22LR rifle but experts are saying no after many years saying yes due to all the testing to see what works. So yes the volume can be ignored.

Thats like driving a Truck with bald tires and you have a bunch of old spare bald tires in the back of the truck, meanwhile my truck has all new heavy duty truck tires, I can go more places and do it much better for longer then a truck with many bald tires can. Sorry seen the studies and won't be carrying any 22LR. Do this take your 22LR up to the range and fire 1000 rds and count the failures and think if that was life or death? There is a reason people also can not deny a revolver is the best defense firearm, it works, it works all the time and failure rates can only be counted on reloads thats how reliable it is. The AR is also very reliable for a simple platform, as mentioned I think the SKS is better but ammo is scarce in a SHTF situation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but it seems we have had very different experiences with the reliability of .22 ammo. As this continues to be a 'what if' conversation, it's primarily a bunch of BS anyway.

You also described a scenario where a person is only carrying a .22 and not another rifle slung in their back a .223 AR perhaps. If you are envisioning using your firearm to hunt, every gunshot tells people where you are and that you have a gun, to some people that is a warning, to others, it is an I invitation. If you are hunting with your .223 you are also using up the same ammo for hunting that you envision using to defend yourself. This means that in time you will have used up your ammo simply feeding yourself even if you never had to defend yourself in that time.

At what distances are we "defending yourself anyway" because defending implies that someone is attacking, so is this person who is attacking shooting more than 100 yards away and if so, what is the thought process that someone 100 yards away or more would be shooting at someone in this 'what if' scenario, is this to gain their supplies?

And in this make believe situation if someone is shooting at you more than 100 yards away and they potentially have 'the drop' on you are we delusional in thinking that magically we will win that fight unscathed?

This is why I generally laugh at all these threads. The "what ifs" are infinite.

You buy the ammo and I'll use my 10/22 to conduct the test. 1000 rounds, counting every failure.

One thing you did highlight that was worth merit was that yes I did focus on volume to some degree. The primary reason for that being that if you are concerned you may have to use a firearm to defend yourself or provide food the last thing you want to run out of is ammo. Not saying you can't also have your precious AR or other .223 variant rifle, but a cubic foot of .22 will go a lot longer than a cubic foot of .223 and in this 'what if scenario' where there is no guaranteed resupply, supplementing any plan with a .22 provides more options than the same weight in only .223 ammo.

No one is forcing you to keep a .22 though so don't worry

 

[nwslopoke]

I hate to be Debbie Downer but it depends why you're bugging out. If it requires a big gun. Take the big gun otherwise the Sig and the Keltec.

Also, the AR platform can use a .22 bcg and serve a dual use. Maybe an AR pistol would be perfect.

 

[Jonnyuma]

I've got a copy of that HS2000 and I gotta say it is THE MOST accurate semi auto pistol I've ever put my hands on.

There's a lot of XD hate. From what I can tell, most of it has to do with A) It's origins, and B) It's not a Glock... mostly B, the other is just backfill.
I have two XDMs for a vehicular BO, a 4.5 .40 and a 3.8 9mm. The big un now also has a 9mm barrel to expand its versatility. The mags can be swapped between the two sizes, and even calibers in a pinch (not the most reliable, but they'll feed). They're not the best at anything, but they're good at everything.

For those recommending a single-shot .22lr: any suggestions? Anything being currently produced, or should I start looking at pawn shops?
It's a good point about the weight, one I hadn't really considered before... a semiauto is really unnecessary for tree-rats and such. I'd hate to lose my 30 yr old Model 60 to a looting mob, but I'd rather be able to move quickly if needed.

 

[11Charlie]

I'll throw another wrench into the program. What am I bugging out in. Walking or driving?

 

[Jonnyuma]

I'll throw another wrench into the program. What am I bugging out in. Walking or driving?

I'll give you a ride... if you hold all my 22 ammo.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Springfield is the upper end "Taurus" of the industry. What's the last gun they actually invented?

HS2000 - Wikipedia

Easy to copy another companies design......

The Saint?

What has glock actually designed lately ? Plastic sights ? No safety ? Glock approved mim ? Funky grip angle ?

Good thing the XDs dont copy those features. Or Sig for that matter .

 

[JedB]

As you have presented, from your options I would take the Ruger 308 and the Ruger 10/22.
Distance & large game with the .308
Small game and ease of ammo portability with the 10/22.

I do have a suggestion for you in red below.

Situation:
-You have enough time to grab 2 of the following long arms on your way to bug out.
-You have sufficient ammo ready to go for whatever you pick.
-You have a p229 in 9mm on your person (I would make this a p226 for mag sharing)
-You have an sp101 in .357 on you.
-Bug out location is the Olympic Peninsula

Long arm options
-Ruger American Predator .308
-Rossi lever 16" in .357
-Remington 870 Express with 18.5" barrel
-Ruger 10/22
-Keltec sub2000 p226 mag version (9mm) (make your pistol a p226 for mag sharing)

 

[Jonnyuma]

I've been talking w some friends about rodent control. Specifically, squirrels. A couple of them use airguns, .177 Ruger-branded Umarex rifles to be precise. These things will reliably put a squirrel down w a single shot using a flat-nosed pellet (better than the cone pellets, from what I'm told). Quiet (for the neighbors at this point), reliable, and accurate.
Downside is... what?

 

[41mag]

This is why I generally laugh at all these threads. The "what ifs" are infinite.

yes