How many fpe is needed to kill big game animals?

[Certaindeaf]

Correct.

Physics is the correct science for FPS and FPE, current science is Electrical.



Brcu

No, that's steamboat willy engineer stuff.. toot toot!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have no idea...and I really don't care to know.

What I do know is that my hunting load of :
80-100 grains of 2F with a .15 patch..and .530 round ball has resulted in me getting :
Grouse...
Coyote....
Antelope...
Deer...
Elk...
And Bear.

All shots have been "pass through"...so I would guess that is enough of whatever formula , magic number or anything else.

As noted by others...
Shot placement is more important that whatever some chart says.....
Use the appropriate bullet design for the animal hunted...
Never underestimate the will to live in a animal....
Never over estimate your shooting ability ....
Andy

 

[osprey]

While expansion can be good and is important in smaller diameter projectiles, when you start talking .429 and larger, it is not necessarily a requirement. A good wide meplat hardcast bullet at .429 or larger disrupts plenty of tissue to be effective and tends to travel straight and deep. I read in testing, one of the boutique ammo loaders, using keith style hardcast bullets, found that with speeds over 1800 fps penetration was actually less than bullets loaded to more moderate speeds. This I hold to be true.
One advantage of the slow heavies starting subsonic that I have not discussed, is the bullet not having to go through the transonic range. Bullet instability can be induced when passing through this range and should be avoided. This all brings me to where I am right now where I might use an airgun to legally take a deer in Idaho next fall. I have 4 different projectiles I am considering. They all are .457 diameter and weigh between 265 and 298 grains. The muzzle velocity will be right around 800 fps and fpe will average just below 400. These bullets all are cast softer than most typical "hardcast" to make sure they obturate to the bore and engage the rifling correctly. Three of them have hollow points to promote some expansion. Two have shallow hollow points and one has a moderate cavity. The fourth candidate is a flat point design. I will first find which ones fly true in the rifle and then subject the top contenders to some ballistic turkey testing. With all these bullets, big bone is best avoided due to the softer alloy. I don't think ribs are a big deal but a big shoulder bone might be a problem. I do have some acme hitek coated hardcast 300gr bullets for my 45-70 that I may size down to .457 and try as well. These are 15-16 in brinell hardness and may not engrave on the rifling enough to be accurate but we shall see.

 

[osprey]

I have no idea...and I really don't care to know.

What I do know is that my hunting load of :
80-100 grains of 2F with a .15 patch..and .530 round ball has resulted in me getting :
Grouse...
Coyote....
Antelope...
Deer...
Elk...
And Bear.

All shots have been "pass through"...so I would guess that is enough of whatever formula , magic number or anything else.

As noted by others...
Shot placement is more important that whatever some chart says.....
Use the appropriate bullet design for the animal hunted...
Never underestimate the will to live in a animal....
Never over estimate your shooting ability ....
Andy

Don't you think that load is a little light for grouse?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Don't you think that load is a little light for grouse?

Sometimes they charge when they are wounded.
If you think a "Killer Rabbit" is tough and dangerous...
Try tangling with a Grumpy , Gruesome Grouse....
Andy

Edit to add :
That loading of 80-100 grains of 2F used when taking grouse has been because I was after deer or elk..
And a grouse showed up for dinner....

 

[orygun]

Terminal velocity is when an object reaches it's maximum speed and will not accelerate any faster. That's what @Cape_hunter was trying to get at.

Effective velocity is what @Koda is describing. It's how fast a bullet must be travelling to be successful on specific game.

Incorrect or not, Terminal Velocity is the term used by bullet and ammo manufacturers these days to describe the minimum velocity needed to make the bullet expand. I believe it is used that way because it is the velocity needed when the bullet flight is terminated and it's job on the target starts.
That's why @Koda used it. I knew what he meant.

Back to the question at hand.
I also have read that the requirement is 1000fpe for deer. I've also been taught that fpe is a terrible way to judge the effectiveness of a bullet...

I have faith that the last three deer I shot I could have killed with my 357 revolver. The farthest was 35 yards(ish). I also got caught in the field during deer season without a rifle and had a chest shot on a small buck at about 15 yards. All I had was my 45ACP with good, self defense ammo. I had no doubt I could have taken him, but when I noticed that I hadn't cleared the roadway yet, I didn't shoot.

 

[solv3nt]

Just drop it guys.

 

[TTSX]

Other animals are able to do it with their teeth, so ... not many

 

[Cape_hunter]

Incorrect or not, Terminal Velocity is the term used by bullet and ammo manufacturers these days to describe the minimum velocity needed to make the bullet expand. I believe it is used that way because it is the velocity needed when the bullet flight is terminated and it's job on the target starts.
That's why @Koda used it. I knew what he meant.

Back to the question at hand.
I also have read that the requirement is 1000fpe for deer. I've also been taught that fpe is a terrible way to judge the effectiveness of a bullet...

I have faith that the last three deer I shot I could have killed with my 357 revolver. The farthest was 35 yards(ish). I also got caught in the field during deer season without a rifle and had a chest shot on a small buck at about 15 yards. All I had was my 45ACP with good, self defense ammo. I had no doubt I could have taken him, but when I noticed that I hadn't cleared the roadway yet, I didn't shoot.

No it's not what they use, most use min impact velocity or jsut impact velocity...and I also knew what he was getting at. Thats the point and why I was trying to help him understand the correct language if he discussing terminal ballistics. Not sure why it was met with such denial.

And also not the topic at hand you're correct.
My apologies.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Something to consider here.....

Cartridges like :
.30-30...
.308...
.30-06....
.270.....
.243...
.45-70 ( Trapdoor loadings )
6.5 x55 Mauser
7x57 Mauser
And many more....

All have been around for a long time....mostly because the loadings and bullets used with these cartridges work well for their intended game.
So...I would guess that if someone just had to put some sort of FPE . FPS , BVD magic number...
Whatever numbers those cartridges have , seem to do just fine.

In any event...
Luckily for hunters game animals don't read ballistic charts....
However , I think that they do read the game season regulations.....
Andy

 

[solv3nt]

Something to consider here.....

Cartridges like :
.30-30...
.308...
.30-06....
.270.....
.243...
.45-70 ( Trapdoor loadings )
And many more....

All have been around for a long time....mostly because the loadings and bullets used with these cartridges work well for their intended game.
So...I would guess that if someone just had to put some sort of FPE . FPS , BVD magic number...
Whatever numbers those cartridges have , seem to do just fine.

In any event...
Luckily for hunters game animals don't read ballistic charts....
However , I think that they do read the game season regulations.....
Andy

When I was spearfishing in Hawaii, there's a species of fish that knows how long you can hold your breath and how far your gun shoots.

 

[Cape_hunter]

View attachment 1834771
Neither Chuck Norris' FPS, nor his FPE can be measured with current sciences...

His kicks are measured in ft/kikotons

 

[osprey]

Well I tried not to roll around in the weeds with you all but I simply use minimum expansion velocity to describe what you all were talking about. If you need an acronym we could call it MEV. MEV concern can simply be avoided by using bullets that don't need to expand to be effectve!

 

[Cape_hunter]

Well I tried not to roll around in the weeds with you all but I simply use minimum expansion velocity to describe what you all were talking about. If you need an acronym we could call it MEV. MEV concern can simply be avoided by using bullets that don't need to expand to be effectve!

Lol
Well when someone says their car is fast and has a top speed of 200 mpg......
Latey I've spent so much time with the 6arc and gearing up for the 22arc I've ignored the big bores. I should fix that.
Cheers

 

[osprey]

There is room in this forum for many opinions and I am not really a stay on topic nazi but I do like to see debates stay civil.

 

[Xaevian]

Just search Ron Spomer outdoors on YouTube and you will know everything there is to know about the subject.

Well, you might get some knowledge, but wrapped in plenty of BS.

 

[Xaevian]

The "minimum energy" and "minimum caliber" garbage was created by gun writers to try to prove how awesome they were and not really tied to actual facts. And, just like the Tic Tok influenced of today, tha mass hunting public swallowed it and repeated it without question or thinking.

 

[osprey]

Bullet technology is much better now, especially in monolithics expanding. The Maker monos are scored to expand perfectly.
With a hypothetically perfect shot placement even if a bullet didn't expand, as long as it had the energy to pass thru a well executed shot in the small incapacitation zones would still drop any game. Heart, head, spine, forward and high shoulder shots; with a bullet that penetrates will drop them like a rock. At the distances your hunting you will have a larger precision advantage I can see optimizing quieter (sub sonic?) less recoil weapon options for you.

Actually a 500 gr bullet launched at 1000fps is far from low recoil but it is definitely not as sharp as some high power rifles. I did mange to scope myself with my 458 socom once when I had a stock deployment issue.

 

[osprey]

I have read most of the gun writers going back to O'Connor and Keith. I have gleaned some things from all of them and taken much with a grain of salt. Most of my opinions have been solidified with my own experiences and testing. Spomer is pretty solid especially compared to some of the current crop.

 

[Stomper]

9 out of 10 animals surveyed prefer the most FPS and FPE available when being shot… shot placement notwithstanding.