How many fpe is needed to kill big game animals?

[osprey]

I hunt both in firearm restriction areas, as well as some smaller farms with the farmhouse and neighbors not too far away from my hunting stands. This has led me down a path to using lower fpe to harvest deer. I have been slinging large quiet hunks of lead and copper and have been impressed at how effective they kill. I think my last 5 blacktails have fell to an averaged fpe around 750. The furthest any traveled was about 30 yds. Of course my furthest shot has been only about 30 yds which helps immensely.

 

[Cape_hunter]

It depends on the bullet design.

Lost me. Are you referring to expansion size?

Lost me. Are you referring to expansion size?

You claimed that the bullets terminal velocity is what measures the performance and that's not the case. Terminal velocity is a different item within the terminal ballistics spectrum.

 

[Koda]

You claimed that the bullets terminal velocity is what measures the performance and that's not the case. Terminal velocity is a different item within the terminal ballistics spectrum.

Actually, all I said was it was what a bullet needs to expand or perform as designed.
Im still not following what your getting at? Do you mean that terminal velocity is something different than what I described?

 

[Cape_hunter]

Actually, all I said was it was what a bullet needs to expand or perform as designed.
Im still not following what your getting at? Do you mean that terminal velocity is something different than what I described?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Terminal velocity is not what is needed nor the measure of what's needed for a bullet to perform/expand/fragment.
You are confusing terms.

 

[Koda]

I hunt both in firearm restriction areas, as well as some smaller farms with the farmhouse and neighbors not too far away from my hunting stands. This has led me down a path to using lower fpe to harvest deer. I have been slinging large quiet hunks of lead and copper and have been impressed at how effective they kill. I think my last 5 blacktails have fell to an averaged fpe around 750. The furthest any traveled was about 30 yds. Of course my furthest shot has been only about 30 yds which helps immensely.

I don't think its going to take much to kill a deer at those close distances, even the weakest calibers will still have retained most of their energy. You also have an advantage of more precise shot placement at such close range to avoid large bone. I dont know what a minimum energy level should be but I would guess 750fpe is well above breaking thru deer bone or would easily pass thru a double lung shot. I think your good to go.

 

[Koda]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Terminal velocity is not what is needed nor the measure of what's needed for a bullet to perform/expand/fragment.
You are confusing terms.

Im going to disagree. Some bullet makers even actually specify minimum velocities to expand their bullets. Nosler, Swift, Hammer are a few examples that literally show the minimum velocity on their product pages in order for their designs to expand. This is also well documented in the hunting industry, an easy web search if your inclined.

If "terminal velocity" is the wrong term to describe the minimum velocity on impact let me know what is the correct term?

This excerpt is just from one easily found article on the subject.
"Bullet expansion or deformation is driven by impact velocity. Rifle bullets designed to deform on impact must impact at a certain velocity to do so. Depending on bullet construction, with most modern big game bullets, the needed impact velocity ranges from around 1,400 fps to 2,000 fps."

Think That Bullet Velocity Doesn't Matter? Think Again

If you want to hit long-range targets and have bullets reliably expand, you should still care about velocity when selecting a rifle cartridge.

www.fieldandstream.com

 

[osprey]

When I first saw people on the u of the tube killing deer subsonic at 200 - 250 yds plus I thought they were nuts and cherry picking footage. Well they may have been cherry picking, but after my last 5 years hunting subsonic, I do believe if you are skilled enough to dope the shot at those ranges the bullet tech is up to the challenge. Take a Maker Rex 500 gr .458 subsonic expanding all copper bullet launched at 1000 fps and lets look at the tale of the tape. That bullet is fairly high bc (.44) and would still be going 900 fps at 250yds. I would fully expect that bullet to fully open up and pass through in a behind the shoulder shot. It would not be survivable. Take another scenario where you launch a hardcast 405 gr bullet in the same caliber at the same speed. At 250yds it is going 861fps and has the devil sign for fpe (666). While it won't expand it will penetrate like nobodies business and being .458" to start, it will be a mortal wound if reasonably placed. I am not advocating for long shooting with these slow heavies but I can see how they would be effective. I personally will probably never push the slow heavies beyond 75 yds or so but there is no doubt about the lethality.

 

[Koda]

I do believe if you are skilled enough to dope the shot at those ranges the bullet tech is up to the challenge.

Bullet technology is much better now, especially in monolithics expanding. The Maker monos are scored to expand perfectly.
With a hypothetically perfect shot placement even if a bullet didn't expand, as long as it had the energy to pass thru a well executed shot in the small incapacitation zones would still drop any game. Heart, head, spine, forward and high shoulder shots; with a bullet that penetrates will drop them like a rock. At the distances your hunting you will have a larger precision advantage I can see optimizing quieter (sub sonic?) less recoil weapon options for you.

 

[osprey]

Turns out bullet tech may have been up to the challenge 200 years ago!

 

[Koda]

Turns out bullet tech may have been up to the challenge 200 years ago!

That I don't know if I can agree with. People killed a lot of things with lead round balls, that doesn't mean it was efficient, it means it was all they had at the time.

 

[Nosferatu]

Terminal velocity is when an object reaches it's maximum speed and will not accelerate any faster. That's what @Cape_hunter was trying to get at.

Effective velocity is what @Koda is describing. It's how fast a bullet must be travelling to be successful on specific game.

 

[Koda]

If "terminal velocity" is the wrong term to describe the minimum velocity on impact let me know what is the correct term?

Terminal velocity is when an object reaches it's maximum speed and will not accelerate any faster. That's what @Cape_hunter was trying to get at.

Effective velocity is what @Koda is describing. It's how fast a bullet must be travelling to be successful on specific game.

Thank you. I will switch to use Effective Velocity to describe the bullets need. Learned something new today.

 

[Cape_hunter]

Thank you. I will switch to use Effective Velocity to describe the bullets need. Learned something new today.

Effective for what? Traveling 1000+ meters?
Penerating 12" of b-gel? Vaporizing a squeek?
People often use term terminal ballistics as the umbrella coverage bullet performance.
I apologize for not being more clear.

 

[Nosferatu]

Effective for what? Traveling 1000+ meters?
Penerating 12" of b-gel? Vaporizing a squeek?
There really isnt a term used to describe the velocity needed. It's just the velocity required for whatever projectile you choose to perform as designed.
I apologize for not being more clear.

Providing a certain amount of expansion at a given distance.

Most bullet manufacturers publish what speeds their bullets need to be traveling to do so.

 

[Koda]

I dont really care what the label or term is. My point was still true and correct. If there isnt a proper label for it maybe I will just keep using terminal velocity.

 

[Cape_hunter]

Providing a certain amount of expansion at a given distance.

Most bullet manufacturers publish what speeds their bullets need to be traveling to do so.

Yep and that's the velocity required for performance as designed as mentioned above. Effective however is measured on a different scale and for different reasons. Just because a bullet expands doesn't mean it is effective. It also doesn't mean it has to expand to be effective.
People seem to mix this up often. For example, I can fire a round downrange that slows to the point it no longer has the velocity to expand as designed and it can still effective. It hit where I sent it.

 

[Cape_hunter]

I dont really care what the label or term is. My point was still true and correct. If there isnt a proper label for it maybe I will just keep using terminal velocity.

If you don't understand the basics and dont care to learn then maybe you should keep using it incorrectly. Apologies for not being able to explain it clearly.
Cheers.

 

[MTpockets]

Neither Chuck Norris' FPS, nor his FPE can be measured with current sciences...

 

[bcp]

View attachment 1834771
Neither Chuck Norris' FPS, nor his FPE can be measured with current sciences...

Correct.

Physics is the correct science for FPS and FPE, current science is Electrical.



Brcu

 

[Certaindeaf]

View attachment 1834771
Neither Chuck Norris' FPS, nor his FPE can be measured with current sciences...

Road. House.