Here's how cops actually trace a gun

[The Heretic]

state law says they can keep background check records for up to 5 years, but state law says nothing about backup records. Everything is computerised, it would be absurd to believe their 5yr registry is mot backed up....

I am sure the law would cover backups of those records as they are copies, whether computerized or printed.

What I am saying is that government lies all the time. Once something is in a computer system is is so so easy to make a copy. All of their BGC records would fit on a thumb drive the size of a dime, the records could be kept an of a thousand different places in their systems, compressed and encrypted, named something innocuous, hidden. It is sooo easy to do on purpose or by mistake.

Will anybody care where the list of gun owners and their guns came from when it is time to confiscate? No. It will be declared some kind of emergency and be pushed through and no questions asked.

FICS is online right?

Before the data gets to the gov. servers, the NSA has captured that data and stored it.

 

[The Heretic]

Is there any kind of auditing provision in the BGC laws to check that the records and backups are deleted? That no one can make a copy?

No?

 

[Koda]

I am sure the law would cover backups of those records as they are copies, whether computerized or printed.

the law doesn't cover backups but I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[The Heretic]

the law doesn't cover backups but I agree with the rest of your post.

It may not explicitly say anything about backups, but backups are copies of records, and I am sure that within the intention of the part of the law that states they can't keep the records past 5 years, that a court wouldn't make a distinction between copies and the original records - especially with regards to digital records where there is no difference at all between the two, and most of the time you can't tell the difference.

FWIW - I used to work in the state archives where copies of state legal records are kept (election results, adoption records, etc.). For most legal purposes, when those kinds of backups come from a traceable authoritative source, the law treats those records as as good as the original.

 

[Koda]

It may not explicitly say anything about backups, but backups are copies of records, and I am sure that within the intention of the part of the law that states they can't keep the records past 5 years, that a court wouldn't make a distinction between copies and the original records - especially with regards to digital records where there is no difference at all between the two, and most of the time you can't tell the difference.

FWIW - I used to work in the state archives where copies of state legal records are kept (election results, adoption records, etc.). For most legal purposes, when those kinds of backups come from a traceable authoritative source, the law treats those records as as good as the original.

perhaps, but then you would be trusting the govt to no lie to you.

If you buy a gun and are the only owner and 10 yrs from now that gun turns up in a crime you will be getting a call. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't keep the records.

 

[The Heretic]

perhaps, but then you would be trusting the govt to no lie to you.

If you buy a gun and are the only owner and 10 yrs from now that gun turns up in a crime you will be getting a call. That wouldn't be possible if they didn't keep the records.

oh - i don't trust them at all, except to lie cheat and steal. I thought I made that clear.

I am just saying that as far as the law is concerned, a backup or copy of a record is the same as keeping the original record, especially when it comes to a digital.

when it comes to a digital data, there is almost always multiple copies of that data in multiple places besides the original. data is passed around a lot. it gets created on a server somewhere originally, which then places it in some other server, maybe a database of some sort, which gets backed up at least on a nightly basis, and/or it is replicated across multiple DB servers to provide instant failover if one server fails, and/or for sharding or other reasons for availability of the data. Also, a lot of data gets put into some kind of read only DB server for reporting/analysis, which can then further get put into a different system for data mining.

Then there is all the ad-hoc reporting systems someone somewhere has cooked up - e.g., a spreadsheet, or other reporting system where someone copied data to a DB. Then there is the testing and dev systems which often use production data on systems isolated from general access, for purposes of testing and R&D.

In short, in the normal course of things in the IT world, data is copied multiple multiple multiple times as a matter of just doing their job, with no nefarious purposes.

At any of those points anyone could probably makes a backup copy without authorization and against policy. Or, some worker could have an authorized copy on their laptop and get that laptop stolen because they left it in their car while grocery shopping.

Then there is all the unauthorized accesses - hackers have been known to gain access to almost anything on government computers.

Plus there is the NSA - that records almost every bit of data that transverses the internet before it reaches its destination, and stores a lot of that data for later analysis.Using HTTPS is useless against the NSA - they cracked those protocols/etc. years ago.

 

[nammac]

Anybody that takes that article as gospel is a fool. (or grossly deficient at math)
There's tons of misinfo there. Like the claim of 33,000+ shootings in 2014.
We know that's false. Roughly 12,000 were "shootings." The other 22,000 were suicides, and we've proven it over and over and OVER again. Not many guns get traced in suicides.
Now, they also claim they have about 50 ATF employees, yet they also claim they're doing this:

Who REALLY believes the 50 ATF employees employed at this place manage to run 1,500 traces a day using this antiquated system? Honestly? What,... Have they found a way to get 100 hours into a day?

Counting holidays, federal employees only work about 250 days per year. So unless this place is operating 24/7/365 they're doing a helluva lot more than 1,500/day.
5 days a week every week makes 260 days for the 370,000 traces.
If they worked 2 shifts, that's 711 traces per shift, or 88.9 traces per hour.
or IOW, each one of the 50 agents completes 1.77 traces per hour.
Or one every 34 minutes.

FAT F*cl<ING CHANCE!

If they only work one 8hr shift, that's 3-1/2 traces per employee per hour.

Since they are covering all the time zones (since they have to call retailers for bound-book searches) in at least the lower 48, I would say at most the place operates 11 hours per day, which still makes 136 traces per hour if they really are doing 1,500 traces per day, or 2.72 traces per hour/per employee. One every 22 minutes.
Seriously?

I'm sorry folks, but using the system they describe in that article that's just not possible. You know it, I know it, and you can betchurass the author of that pro gun-control article knows it.
There's a reason the Obama administration made funds available for states to build the computerized/searchable databases of guns and owners the 1986 FOPA forbids the feds to own, operate and/or store.
And they're using those at every opportunity.
Don't kid yourself.
What else are they using?

You hit the nail on the head here. The Feds can't keep records, just as you've noted...

But the states would be free to, within the confines of each states legislation as it pertains to the keeping of firearms sales records...

There's more than one way to skin a cat... That's why it's imperative to bring the fight back to the states, back to the grass roots level... To defeat any legislation that smells like infringement on our civil rights... Especially that second amendment right!

 

[Koda]

oh - i don't trust them at all, except to lie cheat and steal. I thought I made that clear.

I am just saying that as far as the law is concerned, a backup or copy of a record is the same as keeping the original record, especially when it comes to a digital.

when it comes to a digital data, there is almost always multiple copies of that data in multiple places besides the original.

I think we are saying the same thing... so if I understand you right we agree they dont destroy the records?

 

[Goosebrown]

This story makes me happy. That everything is in some Indiana jones warehouse is my ideal form of government. All departments should work this way.

 

[The Heretic]

I think we are saying the same thing... so if I understand you right we agree they dont destroy the records?

Agreed.

I am also saying, that once something goes digital (I would be very surprised if all of these records/data were not stored in some digital form), it is very hard to even intentionally destroy the records because there are so many copies created in the natural course of using them, that it is hard to know where they all exist, and it is very difficult to know where the first original is.

 

[nammac]

Agreed.

I am also saying, that once something goes digital (I would be very surprised if all of these records/data were not stored in some digital form), it is very hard to even intentionally destroy the records because there are so many copies created in the natural course of using them, that it is hard to know where they all exist, and it is very difficult to know where the first original is.

Not to mention the generational backups that occur for any digitally stored information (daily, weekly, monthly, ...)

 

[Koda]

and it is very difficult to know where the first original is.

unless of course they ban something, then the long deleted list is suddenly valid...

 

[jbett98]

My question regarding OSP's policy of wiping your BGC record clean every 4 years-8 months.
At what point is that initial date set and why is it set.

 

[PaulB47]

Back in the cubicles, I sit with an ATF specialist named Daniel Urrutia. He's a big guy, shy, a blocky head and a thick accent. He's been here 18 years. Everybody I talk to has been here years and years. Urrutia tells me about a 96-year-old guy who got robbed and beaten nearly to death in his own home; the gun trace that Urrutia did on the stolen gun is what broke the case and how they caught the assailant.

Typical gun prohibitionist literature, looking at anecdotal evidence and ignoring the big picture. This reminds me of the old Henry Hazlitt classic, "Economics in One Lesson".
Economics in One Lesson | Henry Hazlitt
Here is the one lesson:

The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.

Yeah, great, BATFE helped solve a crime where an old guy got beat up. Of course they are ignoring the fact that, if not for the BATFE and gun prohibition generally, that old guy might well have had a gun to shoot his attacker with, thus avoiding the beating altogether. And if he didn't, that's his choice and his lookout, not "society's".

As far as I'm concerned, people would be better off if BATFE were abolished and this facility was burned to the ground.

 

[The Heretic]

Typical gun prohibitionist literature, looking at anecdotal evidence and ignoring the big picture. This reminds me of the old Henry Hazlitt classic, "Economics in One Lesson".
Economics in One Lesson | Henry Hazlitt
Here is the one lesson:

The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.

Yeah, great, BATFE helped solve a crime where an old guy got beat up. Of course they are ignoring the fact that, if not for the BATFE and gun prohibition generally, that old guy might well have had a gun to shoot his attacker with, thus avoiding the beating altogether. And if he didn't, that's his choice and his lookout, not "society's".

As far as I'm concerned, people would be better off if BATFE were abolished and this facility was burned to the ground.

Them being able to trace the gun didn't prevent the crime, it only "solved" it - i.e., allowed them to catch the assailant, who probably went free after 6 months in the county jail because it was more important to put a pot smoker in prison than a violent felon.

Meanwhile, thousands if not millions of citizens are denied their rights to own and carry guns to protect themselves.

 

[partsed]

Clicked the link, scrolled down, saw this, my loins started twitching like a wounded lizard...

View attachment 310960

That's TMI

 

[Koda]

Them being able to trace the gun didn't prevent the crime, it only "solved" it - i.e., allowed them to catch the assailant

I dont even think tracing guns actually solves very many crimes if at all. Thats what I was asking earlier...

Nobody commits a crime with their legally purchased gun...

 

[ob1]

This story makes me happy. That everything is in some Indiana jones warehouse is my ideal form of government. All departments should work this way.

Actually in West Virginia. This was confirmed to me by the Portland ATF office last month. And for anyone thinking that a dealer will always retain their copy of the 4473 for 20 years or until they cease business, wrong. Dealers can and do voluntarily surrender their original copies at any time... Case in point, Kieth's Sporting Goods sent all their 4473's to the ATF a couple years ago just to save space. The ATF gladly accepted them and trucked them off to their W.V. repository.

 

[The Heretic]

I dont even think tracing guns actually solves very many crimes if at all. Thats what I was asking earlier...

Nobody commits a crime with their legally purchased gun...

People commit crimes with legally purchased guns - but they are usually not career criminals.

 

[wired]

in Oregon, they send your name, address, make, model, serial number to the OSP who runs the background check (FICS). They send a copy of the 4473, containing the same info, to the feds. The dealer keeps a 4473 copy for at least 20 yrs. The OSP keeps the records for up to 5 years. The feds delete the record the next buisness day.

There is no copy of the 4473 that gets sent to anyone. It stays in the dealers possession until he goes out of business . He has the option of destroying it after 20 years although I dont know of any that do that.