Help with a gun control debate on a non gun forum

[dangerranger60]

Thanks for all the inputs everyone, I like to read and educate myself on all points of view, but when it gets to going back and forth, my memory fails me and I can't remember all the arguments. There is a counter to every point though!



For sure, I now know the error of my ways Main reason I was asking on the bmw forum was because bmw made a security model (armored) for the x5 with integrated door lock boxes, and I wanted to see if I could get the part numbers or if anyone had one to share their experience with it. Looks like this, and very subtle and awesome.

View attachment 398231
View attachment 398232
.

After seeing the security boxes I get why you are asking! Those are kind of cool!
But next time you ask on a BMW forum you will know to state that it's to store your "Tissue boxes" or "Grey Poupon" jars! Then you can skip the 35 pages of dribble that you didn't care about anyway!

Just out of curiousity, Are those fitted to certain guns? or kind of a universal fit? DR

 

[etrain16]

Suicides, self defense, and police shooting criminals.

And to question the number, where does the 11,000 gun deaths come from? Of all the homicides the FBI lists, only around 5-6k are done with guns (and a vast majority are done with handguns).

Good question. The default source for that number seems to be the CDC's stats. That's where I always find it. I don't know the latest number they have available, but 2014 easily comes up with an internet search. In 2014, per the CDC, 33,594 deaths by firearm. Of those, 461 were accidental (unintentional), 21,386 were suicide, 11,008 were homicide, 275 undetermined and 464 were 'legal intervention', which I assume means police shooting or self-defense. Also, when having a discussion with folks I find it simpler to refer to the main number and note that roughly 2/3 are suicides, the remaining 1/3 homicides, just to simplify the discussion.

As to why that doesn't seem to jibe with the FBI's data, I can only assume reporting of such things varies between agencies in how they collect their data. But since it seems most debates reference the CDC's numbers, I try to make them the ones I use.

Link - 2014 numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf



Note: highlighting not mine - it was already in the document I linked.

 

[titsonritz]

Don't waste your time with the fools, you will never change their minds. Facts mean nothing to these emotional little snowflakes. F' em.

 

[Diamondback]

F' em.

Better yet, don't... it only begets more of them, not to mention God only knows what all kinds of nasty VD's you'd get out of the experience.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

That's kind of scary. I keep a gun in the vehicle that's well hidden but it comes out if the vehicle is going to be left at any kind of shop. If people are just forgetting the damn gun is there what are they going to do if they go to get it one day and it's no longer there? Leaving them with no idea of when it was taken. Not everyone is honest like you. Many shops are going to have someone who if they found a gun may well just walk off with it.

yeah for sure! my annual salary is not worth a sub $500 firearm. ive heard of guys(from other shops. i promise it does not happen here.) replacing seat foam or even removing the seats and swiping the loose change underneath like "they'll never know..." to buy a soda...lack of integrity gives automotive technicians(or ANYBODY of a profession)as a whole a bad name. again, not worth losing my income. trust me .75 cents in dimes,nickels and quarters is not worth losing 75-80k, my house, and having my kids starve.

also, i feel that is respectful to obtain permission before messing with peoples personal property. i have our service advisor call and verify its OK before even looking in someones glove box for a wheel lock socket.

i want repeat business.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i find a lot of pot in cara too. what does tick me off is when dirty as$ people leave their car a mess for me to work in or when the car smells like pot and theres kid seats in the back.

whats even worse is theft recoveries where theres needles, spoons and other drug periphenilia scattered in the car. ive refused to work in a car when ive visually confirmed needles in the car. whether its drugs or insulin. also, ive had to call customers to come start theor car via breathilizer too. UGHHH

 

[11Charlie]

i find a lot of pot in cara too. what does tick me off is when dirty as$ people leave their car a mess for me to work in or when the car smells like pot and theres kid seats in the back.

whats even worse is theft recoveries where theres needles, spoons and other drug periphenilia scattered in the car. ive refused to work in a car when ive visually confirmed needles in the car. whether its drugs or insulin. also, ive had to call customers to come start theor car via breathilizer too. UGHHH

Dude that sucks!! I'd want to call the cops on the dumb mother bubblegumers if I found drug periphenilia in a car with a car seat!!

 

[Alexx1401]

yeah for sure! my annual salary is not worth a sub $500 firearm. ive heard of guys(from other shops. i promise it does not happen here.) replacing seat foam or even removing the seats and swiping the loose change underneath like "they'll never know..." to buy a soda...lack of integrity gives automotive technicians(or ANYBODY of a profession)as a whole a bad name. again, not worth losing my income. trust me .75 cents in dimes,nickels and quarters is not worth losing 75-80k, my house, and having my kids starve.

also, i feel that is respectful to obtain permission before messing with peoples personal property. i have our service advisor call and verify its OK before even looking in someones glove box for a wheel lock socket.

i want repeat business.

Yep but sadly it often seems to me we are a dying breed. So many seem to feel entitled to anything they lay hands on and see nothing wrong with it. Over the decades I have seen many fired from a great job over stealing something they could easily pay for. It is amazing when you see it happen. Worked for a place that sold meat to grocery stores for a while. We could buy the stuff for the same price the co paid, so I could buy steak cheaper than hamburger. LOVED it but don't you know a couple guys got caught stealing the damn stuff and of course canned. One of them had 15 years in. Another 5 and he could collect a pension. Instead he got canned for stealing. Amazing.

 

[Alexx1401]

Dude that sucks!! I'd want to call the cops on the dumb mother bubblegumers if I found drug periphenilia in a car with a car seat!!

I have always been very libertarian on this stuff. If they want to do it fine. As long as kids are not involved. That really gets me going too. There was some couple a while ago Cops filmed both parents passed out from heroin while little one is in the car seat in the back. No doubt some liberal judge will give the damn kid back to them.

 

[Alexx1401]

i find a lot of pot in cara too. what does tick me off is when dirty as$ people leave their car a mess for me to work in or when the car smells like pot and theres kid seats in the back.

whats even worse is theft recoveries where theres needles, spoons and other drug periphenilia scattered in the car. ive refused to work in a car when ive visually confirmed needles in the car. whether its drugs or insulin. also, ive had to call customers to come start theor car via breathilizer too. UGHHH

While back one day at Home Depot. Loading stuff and alarm goes off on car next to me. Guy comes over and has to blow into deal. Then starts in telling me what a rip off the whole deal is and crying about it. I just said "pretty simple to not need it". He scowled at me an huffed off. <shrug>

 

[sigboi]

After seeing the security boxes I get why you are asking! Those are kind of cool!
But next time you ask on a BMW forum you will know to state that it's to store your "Tissue boxes" or "Grey Poupon" jars! Then you can skip the 35 pages of dribble that you didn't care about anyway!

Just out of curiousity, Are those fitted to certain guns? or kind of a universal fit? DR

I believe they are designed for an MP5k, as this photo shows (different bmw, but same design weapon box), the two slots are wide enough for mags. As big as it is, you can find a way to attach two handguns in there easily. I just love that its a factory designed piece, and you would just buy the entire interior door panel and replace.



BMW also makes an MP5 mount for the back seat center console:


And on certain 7-Series, they have the weapon box attached to the headliner above:

And BMW seems to love H&K, and why not cooperate, BMW & HK are probably neighbors over there in Germany

 

[Alexx1401]

I believe they are designed for an MP5k, as this photo shows (different bmw, but same design weapon box), the two slots are wide enough for mags. As big as it is, you can find a way to attach two handguns in there easily. I just love that its a factory designed piece, and you would just buy the entire interior door panel and replace.

View attachment 398284

BMW also makes an MP5 mount for the back seat center console:
View attachment 398285

And on certain 7-Series, they have the weapon box attached to the headliner above:
View attachment 398286
And BMW seems to love H&K, and why not cooperate, BMW & HK are probably neighbors over there in Germany

View attachment 398283

Those are nice ideas.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Dude that sucks!! I'd want to call the cops on the dumb mother bubblegumers if I found drug periphenilia in a car with a car seat!!

yeah but with theft recoveries the perps are usually loooonnngggg gone

 

[Lilhigbee]

Curious, can you access the gun with the door closed?? It looks like the cover is long enough that the seat would interfere with it opening. Difficult situation in the event of a car-jacking or such. I do like the idea though, maybe build one that is entirely in front of the seat?? It would be large enough for a handgun and a couple of mags.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

While back one day at Home Depot. Loading stuff and alarm goes off on car next to me. Guy comes over and has to blow into deal. Then starts in telling me what a rip off the whole deal is and crying about it. I just said "pretty simple to not need it". He scowled at me an huffed off. <shrug>

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

I believe they are designed for an MP5k, as this photo shows (different bmw, but same design weapon box), the two slots are wide enough for mags. As big as it is, you can find a way to attach two handguns in there easily. I just love that its a factory designed piece, and you would just buy the entire interior door panel and replace.

View attachment 398284

BMW also makes an MP5 mount for the back seat center console:
View attachment 398285

And on certain 7-Series, they have the weapon box attached to the headliner above:
View attachment 398286
And BMW seems to love H&K, and why not cooperate, BMW & HK are probably neighbors over there in Germany

View attachment 398283

thats awesome!

 

[sigboi]

Curious, can you access the gun with the door closed?? It looks like the cover is long enough that the seat would interfere with it opening. Difficult situation in the event of a car-jacking or such. I do like the idea though, maybe build one that is entirely in front of the seat?? It would be large enough for a handgun and a couple of mags.

I haven't seen one in person, but I'd think that's a pretty big oversight if there wasn't a way to access it with the door closed. My guess is that once you open the weapon door a tad, the entire door flap can lift up and away, or else they'd have a traditional hinge there instead of the string stay.

 

[Lilhigbee]

I haven't seen one in person, but I'd think that's a pretty big oversight if there wasn't a way to access it with the door closed. My guess is that once you open the weapon door a tad, the entire door flap can lift up and away, or else they'd have a traditional hinge there instead of the string stay.

The picture is of a RH door, so unless the car is RHD (I don't see any pedals) it is mounted for the passenger to access. I would presume that it is intended for a police or security team to deploy upon arrival at a scene, and not from inside the vehicle, therefore perhaps the seat isn't a concern, or there just isn't room to put an MP5 in the door without the seat being in the way.

 

[Boboclown]

Good question. The default source for that number seems to be the CDC's stats. That's where I always find it. I don't know the latest number they have available, but 2014 easily comes up with an internet search. In 2014, per the CDC, 33,594 deaths by firearm. Of those, 461 were accidental (unintentional), 21,386 were suicide, 11,008 were homicide, 275 undetermined and 464 were 'legal intervention', which I assume means police shooting or self-defense. Also, when having a discussion with folks I find it simpler to refer to the main number and note that roughly 2/3 are suicides, the remaining 1/3 homicides, just to simplify the discussion.

As to why that doesn't seem to jibe with the FBI's data, I can only assume reporting of such things varies between agencies in how they collect their data. But since it seems most debates reference the CDC's numbers, I try to make them the ones I use.

Link - 2014 numbers: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf

View attachment 398275

Note: highlighting not mine - it was already in the document I linked.

But according to the FBI there's roughly 11k-12k homicides a year and only approx. half are done with guns.

Another thing to point out is that homicide isn't strictly murder. If you kill in self defense its still homicide, but it isn't murder.

Either the CDC has some funny folk working with em, or the FBI does.

 

[cigars]

Seems like you will find many of the same people on NextDoor.