Help picking second SHTF firearm. 1st post!!!

[Steve06]

Whatever you decide to purchase I think it would be wise to get the stainless steel version since you will be living in the woods.

 

[saabracer23]

Wow, lots of response in little time!

First I'll start off with talking about the shotgun, definitly will end up with one, they're cheap. I'd like to get a shorter barrel version as again, don't want to be hauling a bunch of long guns. I think I'm going to go with the handgun for now. I like the idea of common rounds and I think you guys talked me into a 9mm over the other two calibers I was looking at. I do want to go with a semi auto over a revoler for one thing, capacity. obviously the revolver would be more reliable, maybe one later in a larger caliber down the road as a backup for the wife to carry.

Bikejunkie- you are more than welcome to Otis (curious, were you thinking the otis area?), maybe we can be fishin buddies. And when I say otis I mean the area, not near Lincoln City or any populated area. Actually thinking more about this I don't need to be near the coast, just near a body of water (lake, stream). I'd also like to be close enough to a town that I could get supplies when needed in an emergency. Reminds me of the elk hunting days with my dad.

I like the points that were brought up about concealing, don't need to get shot so someone can steal my weapon.

MissJ-I have to do a bit more reading on this to truly understand what peoples predictions are on all this, but is there any fear in staying in a populated area and bunkering down? I don't know how populated your rural area is. I'd figure there'd be alot more dangerous preditors in a populated are unfortunatly they are as smart and maybe as armed. I'm not sure how people would act with a mix of chaos and desperation. I'd rather face a cougar than man with a shotgun wanting my food, but I'm sure everyone will scurry to the woods and the cities will become empty wilderness. Maybe I should go to Alaska! Anyways I like your list, very complete and informative.

I think I'll go for the 9mm, then 12 ga, then a higher caliber rifle of some sort, plus lots of ammo.

Dan

 

[bikejunkie]

I live in west Salem so our bug out plan is to haul *** for the coast range anywhere from Dallas to the ocean. If you are talking pistol capacity the XD/XDm is the way to go. 19+1rounds in the full magazine- you can get more rounds in some absurd long mag for a Glock but it'll stick out half a mile below the grip...

 

[saabracer23]

I live in south Salem and knowing my luck I'll be leaving just as that 5:00 traffic hits the west Salem bridge. Oh and there will be another "jumper" on the bridge. Ugh they really do need a second bridge into Polk county.

Dan

 

[Boats]

A few words:

"A pistol is good for one thing........getting to your rifle."

Thanks for paraphrasing one of Clint Smith's most historically faulty and blowhard statements ever because I get to tee off upon it.

In any SHTF scenario in the lower 48 short of TEOTWAWKI, a service worthy sidearm in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45ACP is going to be far more valuable than a "real rifle."

And you don't have to take my word for it, take FERFAL's, a guy who's lived in an extended SHTF situation rather than theorized about it on Thunder Ranch. SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA

Poke around there. He doesn't dismiss having a long gun but the fact of the matter is that even though the Army itself has twice tried to rid itself of the handgun, first with the M1 Carbine, and then with a PDW concept, the first of which was the M3 "Grease Gun," they haven't been able to do it because handguns make too much sense in too many situations. That's what FERFAL recognizes that Mr. Smith's dismissive aphorism doesn't.

The fact of the matter is that shy of the end of the world, there will be some sort of social order and some functioning concept of "law and order" even if it is frontier justice. If you ever have to actually interact with such a society on anything better than an antagonistic level, discrete self defense is going to be more desirable a stance to take than is "Hi, I am armed to the teeth, let me in."

A handgun is 24/7/365 insurance. Try to do anything else meaningful with a slung rifle and then decide whether you still feel well armed without a sidearm. Go do some hours of gardening with a slung rifle. Fill a few score sandbags. Go take a dump with one. Open carry one around a town and see what happens. Heck, sleep with one, and you'll find out why the Army has bought handguns in their millions despite studying how to rid themselves of them.

The truth becomes apparent. Except for immediate action, patrol, guard duty, etcetera where a long arm is already expected to be at the ready, the handgun is far better for nearly every situation you can think of, from needing both hands, to the need for concealed armament, to taking a shower, to deploying in tight spaces, than is a rifle or shotgun. The pistol is historically proven to be more capable than merely being a stop gap for fighting your way back to a rifle.

Yes, the killing power of handguns suck. But they kill better than a rifle slung over your back you are trying to frantically get into action, or stacked a few yards away, or put in the trunk or a gear bag.

And a mention about SHTF handguns:

My stance is buy what you like, but I would never rely upon one like the XD, which have factory restricted spare parts availability.

I despise Glocks, but like the 1911, it has every spare under the sun available for it, and a trained chimp could detail strip one. Even S&W took note. The M&P has readily available spares for the asking too, down to the smallest pins and springs.

A serious SHTF sidearm is the one you have spare parts for before you desperately need them.

 

[knuckle Head]

I was actually looking at the 40's and 45's if I remember correctly, by ordering from buds online all you pay is the posted price, it includes shipping and no tax, you obviously have to pay a local person with an ffl a small stipen to receive, process and transfer to you, they many people around the country, I used a local person who only charges me $15.00 A lot less than i would have paid in state sales tax.

As with anything else you must shop around,

But back to the point I was trying to make, and it is what I do.

Consider everything before buying something, there are only so many cookies int he cookie jar, as the original poster noted and was trying plan their purchases, what I was trying to do is give the person a way to look at their decision to get as many items as they can, with versatility, ammo availability with least amount cash paid out.

I look at what is on my list, how much $$ I have now and will be able to outlay for the year, what I already have. and last but not least what am I prepping for and for how long

 

[saabracer23]

Thanks all!

Boats-so you wouldn't rely on the xd? When you say the s&w m&p do you mean the standard one? Or did they make one in the 1911 style?

What would be the recommended 9mm with at least 12 rd capacity in the $400-$600 range? Close to 400 is better but willing to spend the extra money if needed. Looking at the used market to extend my funds.

Dan

 

[MissJ]

....MissJ-I have to do a bit more reading on this to truly understand what peoples predictions are on all this, but is there any fear in staying in a populated area and bunkering down? I don't know how populated your rural area is. I'd figure there'd be alot more dangerous preditors in a populated are unfortunatly they are as smart and maybe as armed. I'm not sure how people would act with a mix of chaos and desperation. I'd rather face a cougar than man with a shotgun wanting my food, but I'm sure everyone will scurry to the woods and the cities will become empty wilderness. Maybe I should go to Alaska!

yeah, there are definitely big risks to staying in populated areas and hunkering down. Don't get me wrong, there are no perfect answers for every situation and your plan to go to the coast, or coast ranges is still better than most people's plans (which is to say, they have no plans....). We're far enough out of town that we can safely bug-in during smaller scale and short lived events. In any real collapse or SHTF then we will be looking to bug out as well. My plan is to go east....where there are fewer people and where the people that DO live there are more self-reliant types. You have to work with what you've got too. I would want to go into Eastern Oregon maybe about 200-240 miles from my home- that's a fine plan if cars are still working and we get out in time before the roads are dangerous. If that isn't possible for whatever reason, then we re-assess. We've got lots of detailed PAPER maps of the entire NW region so that if mapqeust, GPS and internet are not working we can still pick out a good spot....

And a mention about SHTF handguns:

My stance is buy what you like, but I would never rely upon one like the XD, which have factory restricted spare parts availability.

I despise Glocks, but like the 1911, it has every spare under the sun available for it, and a trained chimp could detail strip one. Even S&W took note. The M&P has readily available spares for the asking too, down to the smallest pins and springs.

A serious SHTF sidearm is the one you have spare parts for before you desperately need them.

I agree with your stance on side arms. I read the quote about a handgun only serving to fight your way to your rifle, and I rolled my eyes and thought about one too many military movies. I've read FerFal's book the Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse and it makes perfect sense....and you can't argue with a guy who's lived through it. When you still have to go to work, or go into town for supplies, how are you supposed to bring an AK-47 on the bus? or into the lobby of an office building? Just because the world starts falling apart doesn't mean that everything in society will simultaneously cease. It's gonna be pretty hard to survive if you get thrown in jail 3 or 4 days after the crisis starts because you're walking around the grocery store with a loaded assault rifle at the ready....

that said, my question is about spare parts. THanks for the insight, I had never heard about spare parts being a problem for the XD9mm. This is something I should try and remedy now, but I am no gun smith...I mean I can disassemble and clean every firearm I own, but that's about as far as my knowledge of internal workings of guns goes. Which parts, in general should I have on hand for repairs? for the XD9 specifically, but then also for firearms in general. thanks for your help!

 

[Boats]

Thanks all!

Boats-so you wouldn't rely on the xd? When you say the s&w m&p do you mean the standard one? Or did they make one in the 1911 style?

What would be the recommended 9mm with at least 12 rd capacity in the $400-$600 range? Close to 400 is better but willing to spend the extra money if needed. Looking at the used market to extend my funds.

Dan

Any of the M&P series, full size or compact, will serve just fine. The spare parts I like to have on hand for any handgun in the SHTF role are these: recoil spring and guide, trigger return spring, trigger bar spring if pistol is DA/SA, firing pin/striker and spring, mag catch assembly and spring, mainspring and hammer on a hammer firing weapon, all pins in the weapon, and a sear.

 

[Steve06]

Ferfal did talk considerably about having a sidearm in the urban environment, noteing concealability and the ease of having it on you at all times. But long arms also have their place as he also discussed so don't think just having Ferfal's High Power with you is the solitary answer to the problem . . . . especially if you are in a rural area.

 

[bikejunkie]

Recoil guides and springs are readily available for the XD pistols as are most of the small parts you mention though from all reports the only things that even have a possibility of breaking is the recoil guide. To each their own but I have no trouble betting my and my families life on a Springfield XDm. I've run over a thousand rounds through it so far without a single malfunction. I don't think the XD platforms reliability is very questionable- they work, every time you pull the trigger

For instance all those parts can be located here: http://www.pistolgear.com/products.php?id=8

 

[gaijinsamurai]

Glock 19.

 

[MissJ]

Recoil guides and springs are readily available for the XD pistols as are most of the small parts you mention though from all reports the only things that even have a possibility of breaking is the recoil guide. To each their own but I have no trouble betting my and my families life on a Springfield XDm. I've run over a thousand rounds through it so far without a single malfunction. I don't think the XD platforms reliability is very questionable- they work, every time you pull the trigger

For instance all those parts can be located here: PISTOLGEAR | YOUR ONE-STOP SHOP FOR ALL THINGS PISTOL

so far we've run just about 1,000 rounds or slightly less through our XD9 with no problems whatsoever; she fires like a dream. Even my beloved Ruger Mark III has been a little more finicky than my XD, but still I'd rather be prepared with the correct parts because if I am in a situation that I am relying on my gun, then re-supply is not a possibility.

 

[Steve06]

That is why Glock has an advantage over most current firearms. First the parts are easy to obtain at decent prices and second, they offer the Armorer Class to educate you on how to diagnose, repair and install parts. All manufacturers should offer these services to their customers.

 

[Boats]

Ferfal did talk considerably about having a sidearm in the urban environment, noteing concealability and the ease of having it on you at all times. But long arms also have their place as he also discussed so don't think just having Ferfal's High Power with you is the solitary answer to the problem . . . . especially if you are in a rural area.

I wasn't advocating the OP never getting a rifle, only that we are talking about which firearm the OP would find more useful to buy next. Handguns are more useful daily than are rifles and it is true today, tomorrow, and in a SHTF situation. The service handgun purchase should be made next, not being limited in versatility with a combo of a 10/22 and a "real" rifle.

 

[Boats]

Recoil guides and springs are readily available for the XD pistols as are most of the small parts you mention though from all reports the only things that even have a possibility of breaking is the recoil guide. To each their own but I have no trouble betting my and my families life on a Springfield XDm. I've run over a thousand rounds through it so far without a single malfunction. I don't think the XD platforms reliability is very questionable- they work, every time you pull the trigger

For instance all those parts can be located here: PISTOLGEAR | YOUR ONE-STOP SHOP FOR ALL THINGS PISTOL

I am not saying the XD is unreliable. I am saying you can't readily get factory spares for them. Your link proves my point. It's all about aftermarket "upgrades," many of which specifically mention in their description CANNOT be used with the factory part or spring.

If you can't substantially rebuild your pistol from the frame, barrel, and slide up with a factory fresh influx of small parts and springs, you have a potential paperweight, not a SHTF ready sidearm. UPS ain't delivering in a crisis, and in any event, won't deliver you factory small parts for a pistol made in Croatia.

Call Springfield on Monday. Ask them what it would cost to get a sear. Or a locking block to put a new one in the frame. Call pistolgear and ask them at what price you can buy a new extractor.

The XD is a range gun, not a serious SHTF choice.

Nearly any spring or part short of a new frame (even then a receiver can be acquired for most at a price that might not be worth the expense and hassle), can be had for the following pistols:

1911A1
Most models of Glock
The S&W M&P
The Beretta 92 and PX4
Third Gen Smith Autos
The SIG P22x series
The BHP

Everything else is too factory support dependent to build up a good assortment of ready spares for, even some of my own favorite handguns. My personal "one handgun" in a crisis is a toss up between my SIG P226 Navy, a M&P9 and the PX-4 in 9mm. They all have armorer's parts kits available for the asking to the prepared buyer.

For instance, these are the parts that come included in a Beretta PX-4 armorer's kit.


2 Extractor Springs
2 Firing Pin Springs
2 Backstrap Retainer Springs
1 Hammer / Frame Pin
1 Hammer Pin Spring
1 Assembly Lever Pin
1 Sear
2 Sear Springs
1 Right Hammer Spring Guide
1 Left Hammer Spring Guide
2 Disassembly Latch Springs
1 Locking Block
2 Slide Stop Springs
2 Trigger Bar Springs
1 Firing Pin
1 Hammer Spring Cap Flush
1 Trigger Pin
2 Hammer Assembly Pins
2 Assembly Lever Springs
1 Hammer Spring Cap With Lanyard
2 Trigger Springs
2 Hammer Spring Cap Pins
1 Overmolded Trigger
1 Trigger Bar Assembly
1 Mag Floorplate Assembly
2 Recoil Guide Assembly
2 Magazine Release Springs
2 Hammer Springs
2 Extractor Springs
2 Sear Pins
2 Extractor Pins
4 Housing Pin O-Rings

Will Springfield offer you a kit like the above at any price?

 

[csp243]

I have a ruger blackhawk .357 and Cz75B 9mm, with a holster for each of course.

 

[Steve06]

I wasn't advocating the OP never getting a rifle, only that we are talking about which firearm the OP would find more useful to buy next. Handguns are more useful daily than are rifles and it is true today, tomorrow, and in a SHTF situation. The service handgun purchase should be made next, not being limited in versatility with a combo of a 10/22 and a "real" rifle.

If the firearm's purpose is to put meat on the table then a rifle is the answer. If the firearm's purpose is self-defense, concealability and short range applications then perhaps the pistol is the better choice. Seems to me, though, that in the situation described in this thread a person could benefit from having both.

 

[Boats]

If the firearm's purpose is to put meat on the table then a rifle is the answer. If the firearm's purpose is self-defense, concealability and short range applications then perhaps the pistol is the better choice. Seems to me, though, that in the situation described in this thread a person could benefit from having both.

He has a meat getter in a 10/22. In a true time of extreme need, the hunting regulations are off the table and the .22lr is enough rifle to hunt anything in the PNW up close, including birds while on the ground.

24/7/365, no excuses for leaving it behind, a self defense handgun is his next legitimate priority.

 

[bikejunkie]

I am not saying the XD is unreliable. I am saying you can't readily get factory spares for them. Your link proves my point. It's all about aftermarket "upgrades," many of which specifically mention in their description CANNOT be used with the factory part or spring.

If you can't substantially rebuild your pistol from the frame, barrel, and slide up with a factory fresh influx of small parts and springs, you have a potential paperweight, not a SHTF ready sidearm. UPS ain't delivering in a crisis, and in any event, won't deliver you factory small parts for a pistol made in Croatia.

Call Springfield on Monday. Ask them what it would cost to get a sear. Or a locking block to put a new one in the frame. Call pistolgear and ask them at what price you can buy a new extractor.

The XD is a range gun, not a serious SHTF choice.

Nearly any spring or part short of a new frame (even then a receiver can be acquired for most at a price that might not be worth the expense and hassle), can be had for the following pistols:

1911A1
Most models of Glock
The S&W M&P
The Beretta 92 and PX4
Third Gen Smith Autos
The SIG P22x series
The BHP

Everything else is too factory support dependent to build up a good assortment of ready spares for, even some of my own favorite handguns. My personal "one handgun" in a crisis is a toss up between my SIG P226 Navy, a M&P9 and the PX-4 in 9mm. They all have armorer's parts kits available for the asking to the prepared buyer.

For instance, these are the parts that come included in a Beretta PX-4 armorer's kit.


2 Extractor Springs
2 Firing Pin Springs
2 Backstrap Retainer Springs
1 Hammer / Frame Pin
1 Hammer Pin Spring
1 Assembly Lever Pin
1 Sear
2 Sear Springs
1 Right Hammer Spring Guide
1 Left Hammer Spring Guide
2 Disassembly Latch Springs
1 Locking Block
2 Slide Stop Springs
2 Trigger Bar Springs
1 Firing Pin
1 Hammer Spring Cap Flush
1 Trigger Pin
2 Hammer Assembly Pins
2 Assembly Lever Springs
1 Hammer Spring Cap With Lanyard
2 Trigger Springs
2 Hammer Spring Cap Pins
1 Overmolded Trigger
1 Trigger Bar Assembly
1 Mag Floorplate Assembly
2 Recoil Guide Assembly
2 Magazine Release Springs
2 Hammer Springs
2 Extractor Springs
2 Sear Pins
2 Extractor Pins
4 Housing Pin O-Rings

Will Springfield offer you a kit like the above at any price?

I would say the likelihood of needing to fabricate your own pistol from bare housing isn't a concern to me- especially since I have neither the tools nor the training to do so anyway. That's why I bought a reliable pistol in the first place- like a Springfield. I keep the stock recoil spring and guide around but that's even unlikely to ever be needed. To call the XD a "range gun" is pretty absurd to me- to me a true SHTF gun is one that is accurate and goes bang every time you pull the trigger with whatever ammo you feed it. The XDm does this, plus it holds an awful lot of bullets, which I like. To each their own I guess...