Gun trade gone sour. What would you do?

[Trlsmn]

If it is the .45 revolver that was sold close to a week ago. I would say you should make it right. If making it right means educating him that he's short stroking it's an easy fix. If you need to shoot the gun to see it broken you should indeed follow up. You asked for opinions so I gave you mine.

 

[littlecars]

The deal is done. I wouldnt feal bad about telling him he is on his own, If he didnt want to trade he shouldnt have.

If you decide to help him out in any way, feal free, but dont feal obligated to. If I were you I would give him all the ideas that were posted on hear, and If that doesnt fix his problem then I would tell him a deal is a deal and give him a link to this thread and let him read what people are saying.

 

[Trlsmn]

Reading the ad I have no problem speculating that the buyer would prevail if he took the matter to small claims court. Again this is my own personal opinion which was asked for in the original post.

 

[gtivan]

Not saying who would win in court or what should happen.

But on the brazilian, it is over 70 years old. The guy selling doesn't seem too familiar with old revolvers. If you were buying and didn't know how to check out a old revolver, than buyer beware.

 

[Gunner3456]

Reading the ad I have no problem speculating that the buyer would prevail if he took the matter to small claims court. Again this is my own personal opinion which was asked for in the original post.

Even in small claims court you need evidence. I think that would require a letter or note from a gunsmith on letterhead. (Small claims will look at a letter.) If a gunsmith says it's bad, I'd pay to fix it or I'd trade back before it ever got to court.

What's wrong with just asking the guy to take it to a gunsmith? Maybe the fix is so cheap I could just pay for it?

Otherwise how do you prove that the gun isn't being short stroked or that there isn't dirt under the extractor or even that bad reloads aren't being used? Didn't the buyer dry fire the gun as he bought it? If not, he should have.

You can't bring guns into court - just your word against mine and a letter from a gunsmith if available.

I'd ask the guy to take it to a gunsmith and if it's acting up I'd trade back or pay to have it fixed - my option. If I made that offer in writing, even an email and the guy wouldn't help out there, I wouldn't help him. I don't think the court would have any sympathy for him either.

$.02

 

[Trlsmn]

I look at it very simply, the guy who received the gun, received a gun not as stated in the Ad, if he can prove this is true it is reasonable to expect to have his part of the deal made whole.

I stick by my statement that a court would rule the same way. It's only been 7 days (or less) and it did not work as stated the first time tested, the 7 day (or less) time frame to test is reasonable.

Again, I'm giving my opinion as asked for in the first post.

Close to the same gun as a S&W M1917 from WW1 but was built by Smith and Wesson at a later date on contract for the Brazilian military. There is some history to these surplus guns found here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_revolver#Later_Use

<broken link removed>

I would consider this example to be a shooter vs a collector and a fine shooter it is. Lots of fun in a full size revolver plus you don't have to hunt for your brass after its all over. I am no expert but I think this has had a re-blue at some point and there is some pitting on the side plate and frame. Functions and fires fine. I did have the mainspring break and it has been replaced with a wolf aftermarket standard power spring. If I remember correctly I ordered the mainspring in a spring kit from wolf so I have the various other replacement springs for this pistol as well. Aftermarket Hogue rubber grips are installed and makes it very comfortable to fire and handle. Shoots 45 acp with full moon clips, (10 included) or .45 Auto Rim with out the use of clips. Uncle Mikes nylon holster included as well. I'm asking $475 for the package or possibly trade for a revolver in 357 mag. w/ at least a 4" barrel or a compact .45, open to other offers as well.
P.M. with questions or for more pictures
Local F2T deals only with proper proof of I.D. please.

 

[bt97006]

I look at it very simply, the guy who received the gun, received a gun not as stated in the Ad, if he can prove this is true it is reasonable to expect to have his part of the deal made whole.

I stick by my statement that a court would rule the same way. It's only been 7 days (or less) and it did not work as stated the first time tested, the 7 day (or less) time frame to test is reasonable.

Again, I'm giving my opinion as asked for in the first post.

I am sure the gun worked before. I just took it out not too long ago and shot a box through it before cleaning it and decided to post it up in the classifieds. If I was aware of a problem I would not have passed it off on someone else. That is not how I operate. I like the idea of getting a gunsmith involved to diagnose the problem. Offering to go in halves for a smith to check it out sounds like a fair first step. Perhaps it is an easy and inexpensive fix, maybe he or I did something unintentionally to induce it, I don't know. I do want to make it right, so I will see what the other guy thinks about sharing the expense of at least finding out the extent of the problem and we can go from there I guess.

I did ask for advice here and on other forums and have taken all into consideration. Thanks for all the comments from you guys. I will say in other forums they are not so forgiving or understanding once a deal is sealed. I was warned of him swapping parts to complete another gun to using it in an armed robbery..... {insert rolling eyes smiley here}
To the best of my knowledge and experience with it, it did function and fire fine when in my possession. I am not trying to make excuses or false claims about how things went down and I haven't tried to mislead anyone or have I left the guy out to dry. I did give the opportunity to examine and inspect the gun in every way he wished, even at his request, pulling off the grips to show some pitting underneath on the frame. If shooting the gun first was requested before hand prior to the exchange, I would have had no problem with it if a viable range was available. I did not send him off with a warranty, and I considered once we parted ways both pistols were in working order but to be thought of to be "as is." I wasn't aware of a grace period clause in any dealings here. I am willing and trying to make things right. Otherwise why even ask about it in the first place?? There is no need to let it turn into a legal battle. I don't think either side involved would feel it was worth taking it that far. I have been in contact with the other party involved and discussed the problem to get a clear picture of his concerns of what the gun was doing. He says it was skipping a chamber and confirmed only on on a double action trigger pull. He told me he was not short stroking the trigger and after shooting it he took it home and cleaned it and now it seems to be functioning fine. I speculated that it may have been just gunk or maybe a bent moon clip causing something to be off but I have no idea what has caused it. He said he will go shoot it again and if the issue was still there, he has agreed to have a third party examine it to find if there is a valid problem with it and to what extent. We are in agreement to share that expense. If there is a problem depending on how expensive a fix, I may offer to have it fixed within reason or trade him back. It is an unfortunate situation that things didn't go well but sometimes that is life.

 

[KRISSTDI]

I've made MANY trades in which I kick myself for...never once have I thrown a fit over my poor judgment and ask to trade back, yadda yadda yadda. (At least not so serious as I was having a REAL issue with the other party involved.) I've "lost" a lot of money by trading something I have $900 into for a gun worth $600-$700. The way I look at it, if I agree and shake hands it's a done deal.

HOWEVER......

If both parties are well-known with a lot of positive feedback, and there is a problem with a firearm, there may be some "play" and understanding, and an agreement can be made.

Guess you gotta ask yourself.....is there really a serious problem with the gun you traded? Or did the other person make a not-so-sensible trade on their part and they are trying to recover from their "loss"?

I am in the same boat. To get what I want I have lost thousands of dollars but I am happy.

I say have it inspected and see what the gunsmith comes up with. If its a $100 fix then I would pay for that.

 

[soberups]

I he has agreed to have a third party examine it to find if there is a valid problem with it and to what extent. We are in agreement to share that expense. If there is a problem depending on how expensive a fix, I may offer to have it fixed within reason or trade him back.

It sounds to me like you are making a good faith effort to be fair and reasonable, particularly when the gun in question is 70+ years old.

If the other party is willing to be fair and reasonable also, I'm betting the two of you will find a way to resolve the issue.

 

[Wenis]

I think the 3rd party, gunsmith approach is probably best in this case, however, it's not like we're trading baseball cards or bicycles. This is a firearm. You have no idea what's been done or how it's been used since another person has been using it.

Solely on that reason alone, this is a done deal.

 

[Oro]

I'd actually watched this transaction from the sidelines. I was curious because 1) I currently have a 1917 for sale, 2) the buyer posted over on THR soliciting advice on the trade, and 3) I'd seen the classified post here.

So I watched his developing discussion over there:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=528494&highlight=brazilian


The buyer is not totally new to firearms, and he had the benefit of consulting others, Jim March's revolver check-out guide, and an opportunity to perform the check-out and find any flaws. It seems it was his well-informed judgment that the gun met the conditions as advertised when the transaction was performed.

The deal is done in my book.

Were I the buyer, the first thing I would do is open it and clean it and make sure the reported malfunctions weren't induced by his own use of it. It might not even be necessary to open the sideplate. Just removing the cylinder stop screw (the one on the front of the trigger guard), and cleaning out that area and re-installing a clean lubed spring can help this issue. Buying antique and old firearms does not mean they come with a warranty. If that's an issue to people, I suggest they buy new ones. S&W currently makes this model and he could have bought a brand-new one with a lifetime warranty.

If the buyer were completely new to firearms, revolvers, or didn't get to examine the gun, I'd possibly have a different opinion. But looking at the time he took to examine the deal and that he was armed with the requisite information to check it out thoroughly and the opportunity to do so doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room in my book.

 

[oregonshooter]

Done deal.

I had an experience like yours with selling a 1911 that drove me to create...
http://oregonshooter.com/terms.html for all transactions.

 

[soberups]

Whenever I sell a gun, I invite the purchaser to meet me at my gun club and test-fire the gun prior to buying it.

If he takes me up on the offer and the gun functions as expected...then once he buys it the deal is done and anything that occurs afterward is on him.

If he doesnt take me up on the offer...the deal is still done because I gave him the opportunity to test fire it and he chose not to.

In any case, I believe in full disclosure. I charge a fair price for the gun in the condition that I know it to be in and I am honest about any issues that it might have.

Once the sale is over, my conscience is clear. Proper function of a gun could be a life or death issue and it is morally wrong to knowingly dump a defective weapon onto a would-be-buyer without making him fully aware of any flaws.

 

[madcratebuilder]

It's a done deal. The new owner handled the revolver, checked it out and shook hands on the deal.
It's a 70 year old revolver, you never know when a small part may break. It sounds to me like it's gummed up inside the action, a good cleaning may be all it needs.

 

[bdb benzino]

Oro,
Thank you very much for the advice, it was exactly what you said. Now after a deep clean and pulling and cleaning the cylinder stop spring, it works flawlessly, no passing cyliners and it seems to have affdected the way the cylinder sits as well and now is more smooth.
Sorry to cause the op stress, and thanks to him for being a stand up guy and being willing to work it out!
FYI for those that want to know, the problem was not noticable at all unless you were shooting live ammo, so lesson learned is to test out guns if at all possible. The revolver check out does obviously not catch every problem.

I am very pleased now that it functions normal, and it shoots accurately and soft for a big bore revolver. This will be my new range toy and bedside home defense weapon.

Thanks to all for the ideas on trying to fix it, the knowledge is very appreciated!

 

[bt97006]

Oro,
Thank you very much for the advice, it was exactly what you said. Now after a deep clean and pulling and cleaning the cylinder stop spring, it works flawlessly, no passing cyliners and it seems to have affdected the way the cylinder sits as well and now is more smooth.
Sorry to cause the op stress, and thanks to him for being a stand up guy and being willing to work it out!
FYI for those that want to know, the problem was not noticable at all unless you were shooting live ammo, so lesson learned is to test out guns if at all possible. The revolver check out does obviously not catch every problem.

I am very pleased now that it functions normal, and it shoots accurately and soft for a big bore revolver. This will be my new range toy and bedside home defense weapon.

Thanks to all for the ideas on trying to fix it, the knowledge is very appreciated!

Glad it was an easy fix and you were able to do it yourself. It really had me baffled so that is why I sought advice on the matter. I appreciate you posting here and confirming you are satisfied with the trade now and we are all squared away. Thanks for everyone's advice, it really did help resolve this situation. I think we both learned some good lessons from this transaction and now we can move on and enjoy what we both like to do..... :gun10::gun05::gun09::gun11::gun13::gun14::gun12::gun16::gun18::gun20::gun19::gun17::gun21::shooting:

 

[The Duck]

Delete: It was just a BS funny post connected to the thread title, but it seems the thread is moving into a conversation with no need for random post...

 

[bt97006]

Delete: It was just a BS funny post connected to the thread title, but it seems the thread is moving into a conversation with no need for random post...

I agree and now that this has been resolved, no need to drag it out. Mods feel free to close my thread if you'd like.

 

[Celtic Armory]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up or if the OP and the other party have traded back or not. But ...

Offer to go shooting with the person and both of you can shoot the revolver in question and see if YOU can create the problem too. If it's only happening with him then the problem is the shooter and not the firearm. I would not trade back unless he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the firearm is the problem. The only way to do that is to take it to the range. Besides, if the both of you are cool about it you could become friends.

 

[Oro]

Oro,
Thank you very much for the advice, it was exactly what you said. Now after a deep clean and pulling and cleaning the cylinder stop spring, it works flawlessly

Excellent, and glad to help. I've encountered this condition twice in the past - once on a 5-screw gun (grease and debris in the spring and screw), and once on a very clean, low mileage 2.5 686-4 (c. 1994 build, kinked spring). The old guns are nice as you can check this one point without a detail strip because of the trigger guard screw.

The only way to get the condition to appear in dry firing is very rapid double action, which you probably aren't doing on a check-out to be respectful to the gun. Dirt in that cylinder bolt spring way down in the recesses of the frame, or that spring being a little cockeyed, causes this. And it can be a real head-scratcher as everything else looks good and checks out, then shows up once in a while.

Usually, it's from years of over-lubing. Over-lubing the gun, especially with light machine oil, WD-40, etc., leaves residue in the bottom of the frame to attract powder debris and lint. It can take a lot of years and firing, but eventually it catches up to you. Unlike most modern auto pistols, with their fairly open design that lets excess lube migrate out, the S&W frame, and most revolvers, basically hold in any thing you squirt through the frame window or hammer slot. Eventually it catches up to you. The trick to long-term health is proper to lubrication to start, and little to none as time goes by.

On any S&W over 25 years or so, I take it as a given on getting it home that I need to detail strip it, clean it, and lightly re-lube the working interior parts as I re-assemble it. If you don't know how to do this, there are excellent resources online to show you how to do it; there's a nicely illustrated one "stickied" at the top of the revo. subforum at THR.org (by Sylvan_Forge). Hopefully some folks can file this away in their memory and save some more aggravation in the future.