Europe and gun ownership...

[Goosebrown]

@tac. I would really miss you. I sure do recommend the ignore feature for some folks.

 

[User 1234]

I don't think anyone is personally attacking tac. It looks like people are disgusted that self defense is outlawed and even target shooting requires government permission.

 

[tac]

tac, or anyone that might know, does a prospective gun owner need to pass any safety/handling/proficiency classes before being able to purchase a firearm in the UK or elsewhere in Europe? Thanks in advance.

Well, I really can't speak for other places, because I don't live there, so if you'll excuse me I'll concentrate on the yUK, where I DO live.

To get a Firearms Certificate [FAC] for TARGET SHOOTING here in yUK, you must first join a Home Office-approved gun club. Since there are NO gun clubs that are NOT HO-approved, that's no hardship. And there are >1500 guns clubs in the yUK. Join one that does the kind of shooting you think you'd like to pursue, especially a black powder club like the one at Wedgnock, the alma mater of the MLAGB.

Once you are signed on as a probie, you are there for six months of hands-on learning the ropes, and getting to shoot anything that the club has for noobs, and anything that fellow members give you to shoot. There MIGHT be a couple of written tests to see that all the safety stuff is getting through to you, but as yet, that's not an official requirement.

After your six month probie time is done, and you become a FULL member of the club, you can apply for your FAC. The main signature comes from the Club Secretary, plus two others who have known you for two years or more - there's a lot more to it, but you can see all that if you take a look at the FAC Form 1 on the website.

For game shooting, you are required to be mentored by an established shooter, who will know the kand over which you will probably be spending your time shooting. this is a good idea, as the yUK is small, and missing your target might mean killing some old lady waiting for the bus two miles away...

Same goes for pest control.

If you are taking up a profession where you will need to be able to shoot, like game-keepering or estate ranger, the likelihood is that you are already a shooter. If not, then you will need to be trained as part of your job, and when trained, will be granted an FAC as part of your professional documentation, although you may already have one of your own for other reasons.

For humane despatch, you will need to be a game warden or large animal vet - horses or cows, but not chameleons or bunnies.

 

[tac]

I don't think anyone is personally attacking tac. It looks like people are disgusted that self defense is outlawed and even target shooting requires government permission.

Self defence is NOT outlawed. But with guns not instantly available you are going to have to use something else. Being ex-military means that I could incapacitate or maim somebody who offered me violence using only a paperclip or drinking straw but you can be certain that I WILL do violence to anybody trying to do the same to me.

 

[tac]

BTW, this is what I missed today by being in yUK and not Germany - a 50m biathlon range in the middle of an arena and the worlds' largest biathlon meet, plus 46,000 fans....

Biathlon auf Schalke

and -

 

[DirectDrive]

If I were a yUKker, I would encourage the Home Office to provide a pool of target holders for the various clubs to promote good sportsmanship.
A sort of "Out-Reach" program.

 

[Goosebrown]

Self defence is NOT outlawed. But with guns not instantly available you are going to have to use something else. Being ex-military means that I could incapacitate or maim somebody who offered me violence using only a paperclip or drinking straw but you can be certain that I WILL do violence to anybody trying to do the same to me.

They're banning drinking straws here. Can the paper clip be far behind?

 

[tac]

If I were a yUKker, I would encourage the Home Office to provide a pool of target holders for the various clubs to promote good sportsmanship.
A sort of "Out-Reach" program.

Explain, please?

 

[wp4]

They're banning drinking straws here. Can the paper clip be far behind?

Don't worry, probably just high capacity paper clips that can hold more than 10 pages together.

 

[tac]

They're banning drinking straws here. Can the paper clip be far behind?

Only if it's a black assault paper-clip, with a shoulder thing that goes up.

 

[DirectDrive]

Explain, please?

It was cartoon image of a bureaucratic, bean-counter fellow serving as a William Tell type of target holder.

 

[tac]

It was cartoon image of a bureaucratic, bean-counter fellow serving as a William Tell type of target holder.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[Tony617]

That spot is a separate country. Andorra.

Andorra - Wikipedia

Nice. I traveled to Barcelona 2 1/2 years ago and did not know about Andorra.

 

[Hop Sing]

Well, I really can't speak for other places, because I don't live there, so if you'll excuse me I'll concentrate on the yUK, where I DO live.

To get a Firearms Certificate [FAC] for TARGET SHOOTING here in yUK, you must first join a Home Office-approved gun club. Since there are NO gun clubs that are NOT HO-approved, that's no hardship. And there are >1500 guns clubs in the yUK. Join one that does the kind of shooting you think you'd like to pursue, especially a black powder club like the one at Wedgnock, the alma mater of the MLAGB.

Once you are signed on as a probie, you are there for six months of hands-on learning the ropes, and getting to shoot anything that the club has for noobs, and anything that fellow members give you to shoot. There MIGHT be a couple of written tests to see that all the safety stuff is getting through to you, but as yet, that's not an official requirement.

After your six month probie time is done, and you become a FULL member of the club, you can apply for your FAC. The main signature comes from the Club Secretary, plus two others who have known you for two years or more - there's a lot more to it, but you can see all that if you take a look at the FAC Form 1 on the website.

For game shooting, you are required to be mentored by an established shooter, who will know the kand over which you will probably be spending your time shooting. this is a good idea, as the yUK is small, and missing your target might mean killing some old lady waiting for the bus two miles away...

Same goes for pest control.

If you are taking up a profession where you will need to be able to shoot, like game-keepering or estate ranger, the likelihood is that you are already a shooter. If not, then you will need to be trained as part of your job, and when trained, will be granted an FAC as part of your professional documentation, although you may already have one of your own for other reasons.

For humane despatch, you will need to be a game warden or large animal vet - horses or cows, but not chameleons or bunnies.

Thank you - much appreciated!

 

[MannyGlocks]

tac,

In regard to game - do many in your neck of the woods know how to process game?

For years, I handled so much wild game from fish to mammals doing so wasn't an onerous/debilitating/nauseating chore. Just another part of the program if you will...

Game processing is at times labor intensive yes, but I found a few folks with rather debilitating queasiness when it came to dressing deer or other larger mammals.

Years ago, I asked for and needed my wife's help to gut, skin, butcher a feral sow I'd shot in our back yard and as she'd always been a good hand at fish processing, I didn't give it a second thought. Wrong. In the process of cleaning this animal she almost passed out. To her credit, she soldiered and only told me about her distress later...

So, are U.Ker's. hardy regarding this subject or is it like here, lots of folks not really up to the task...thus some become vegetarians as their knowledge of what it takes to make a steak (if you will) too, too much for them?

As an aside: In the past, I recall shooting game birds and at times found them wounded and fluttering when I picked them up. What to do? I'd immediately yank their heads off. It was quick and humane, but I can see the more gentle souls shuddering at my seeming brutality.

Being a hunter and dealing with all that comes with it seems more than some can deal with, but they'll gladly eat meat, but would pass out if having to go to a slaughter house.

Sorry, I'm rambling...

 

[tac]

MannyGlocks wrote -

In regard to game - do many in your neck of the woods know how to process game?

Of course. Anybody who shoots deer must pass the British Deer Society Course level 1, which includes a shoot and a gralloching. One of our shooters, Simon C, has shot almost 150 deer this year, and he is not a professional in any way. We have almost 150,000 too many of them, thanks to the Bambi-fondlers.... In Germany, in order to obtain your Jagdschein or hunting permit, you must do a one week course and show proficiency with all three kinds of firearm that you are likely to use, AND sit a written test which you must pass - AND it DOES cost a lot of money, too.

So, are U.Ker's. hardy regarding this subject or is it like here, lots of folks not really up to the task...thus some become vegetarians as their knowledge of what it takes to make a steak (if you will) too, too much for them?

If you can't take what goes with the shooting of a wild animal, then you don't take up the sport - it's not compulsory, y'know. Venison is sold in just about every small butcher's/game dealers who are licensed to sell such meat. If I wanted any, I woudn't have to buy it, since I have at least twenty fellow shooters who do deer culling. No tags here, either.

As an aside: In the past, I recall shooting game birds and at times found them wounded and fluttering when I picked them up. What to do? I'd immediately yank their heads off. It was quick and humane, but I can see the more gentle souls shuddering at my seeming brutality.

I don't have a problem with that. But then I don't shoot birds or any game.

 

[cigars]

It's not that there isn't any LEGAL firearms ownership outside the USA. What's galling (to me) is that you have to go "hat in hand" (read open your wallet DEEP) to whatever "dickhead" is in charge and ask/beg/bribe permission to have one, and then IF granted you're relegated to "uncool" kit.....


Anti-2A states in the USA that do the same exact thing not withstanding, of course.

Problem is, that all of the anti-2A states in many ways want to be like Europe.

 

[nehalemguy]

Someone's been "triggered".

E

 

[Koda]

The problem with this comparison is that we simply don't want EU type gun laws, No matter how you spin it they don't have a right to keep and bear arms and the devil is in the details.
The UK is but a small sample of various EU gun laws, they might "shall issue" you a permit once you meet requirements but those requirements are an infringement on on our rights per our constitution. The little map of legally held firearms does not include how many of those are self defense firearms like Glocks or AR15s. The map doesn't cover the additional laws governing their use and I don't know of any country that allows the average citizen a way to carry for personal self defense without "a good reason".

The long standing argument with gun controllers is that gun control laws like EU laws still support our constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but they don't.

 

[tac]

...gun control laws like EU laws still support our constitutional right to keep and bear arms, but they don't.

Nossir, they don't.

USA - the RIGHT to bear arms is guaranteed and safeguarded by the Constitution. Nobody has the counter-right to take your guns away from you.

ROW - the PRIVILEGE of owning arms is granted by the government. If, all of a sudden, the government decides that you can't have them - as happened in yUK in 1986 and 1996 - then they take them. Since the government said 'you can', the government can equally and easily say 'you can't.'