Disguised Guns and CCL.

[Nwcid]

It was my understanding that anything that can be shot while still in it's disguised configuration is a controlled item.

Two examples come to mind.

Cobray used to make something called the "operational briefcase". It was an average looking briefcase designed to carry the Mac-10. It had a small hole on the side which functioned as a firing port. A lever led from the trigger to the case handle. It was classed as an "assassination device" and required a tax stamp. (I've heard that the secret service has something similiar for protection details)

Galco used to produce a "wallet holster" for the AMT backup. It resembled a leather wallet but had a hole in the center for the trigger and a pin inside which activated the grip safety. ATF shut down production of these and I believe using one requires an AOW.

Close but not quite. The ATF does not have a "assassination device" section. The "operational brief case" has been around for quite some time and is often associated with the MP5. The case on its own is just a case. The gun on its own is "just a gun" (whatever Title 1 or Title 2 firearm it may be). If you put a Legal Full auto in the brief case it is 100% legal. If you were to put any other firearm in then the combo would need to be registered as an AOW being that it does not fit any other description of a firearm. Some say SBR guns are OK in the case but if they are in the case they no longer fit the description of an SBR.

Same for the holster. Galco may have quit making them, but they didnt have to. The holster is 100% legal. If you put a gun it then they need to be registered as an AOW. There are still several places that sell holsters like this for things like the NAA and Kel Tec.

 

[phathom]

Yeah, but that still strikes me as mind-bogglingly reckless...

I completely disagree that he painted the tip orange to look like a toy gun. It's illegal for you to do that with a toy gun (to paint over the orange) and you'd get charged for having a real gun.

However, the open carry thing I am completely behind.

As far as hidden guns. I normally just keep my keltec in my pocket, I can shoot it from my pocket if need be, without anyone seeing what I'm about to do. I'd say that is good enough for me.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

I guess the ideal hidden gun would be in an object that the bad guy would expect you to be handling during his attempted victimization of you. Maybe a cellphone, wallet or the retractible dog leash thing. It would have to be ready to fire without opening or unlocking it though. I agree that the toy gun option although interesting and probably already out there is a bad idea.

 

[ob1]

Close but not quite. The ATF does not have a "assassination device" section. The "operational brief case" has been around for quite some time and is often associated with the MP5. The case on its own is just a case. The gun on its own is "just a gun" (whatever Title 1 or Title 2 firearm it may be). If you put a Legal Full auto in the brief case it is 100% legal. If you were to put any other firearm in then the combo would need to be registered as an AOW being that it does not fit any other description of a firearm. Some say SBR guns are OK in the case but if they are in the case they no longer fit the description of an SBR.

Same for the holster. Galco may have quit making them, but they didnt have to. The holster is 100% legal. If you put a gun it then they need to be registered as an AOW. There are still several places that sell holsters like this for things like the NAA and Kel Tec.

As for the Galco, that was what I was trying to say...an AOW is needed to use it legally, but then again, why would someone want one if they couldn't use it legally anyway?

As for the Cobray case.....I was quoting from page 43 of the Cobray Ingram manual..."Classified by the BATF as an assassination device and must be federally registered". (if you would be interested in seeing it, I could e-mail it to you, I have the manual right in front of me here, but I apparently don't have the proper software to insert it in the thread.) It would seem kind of illogical for them to say the item required registration if it did not, that would needlessly scare away potential customers.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

cellphone gun?

 

[Nwcid]

As for the Galco, that was what I was trying to say...an AOW is needed to use it legally, but then again, why would someone want one if they couldn't use it legally anyway?

As for the Cobray case.....I was quoting from page 43 of the Cobray Ingram manual..."Classified by the BATF as an assassination device and must be federally registered". (if you would be interested in seeing it, I could e-mail it to you, I have the manual right in front of me here, but I apparently don't have the proper software to insert it in the thread.) It would seem kind of illogical for them to say the item required registration if it did not, that would needlessly scare away potential customers.

I would love to see the book, it sounds very cool.

I have no doubt it says that, I am just saying that is not a class of firearm according to the ATF. The NFA has 6 classes and they are MG, DD, SBS, SBR, AOW, and Silencers. If you are interested in reading up more on it here is the NFA handbook, ATF Online - Publications - Firearms - National Firearms Act Handbook


[email protected]

 

[Stomper]

Well I did try a banana gun once but I couldn't fire the dang thing, my finger kept slipping off the trigger.

I'm just glad you didn't mistake it for your banana phone and shoot your eye out!

 

[PromptCritical]

I completely disagree that he painted the tip orange to look like a toy gun. It's illegal for you to do that with a toy gun (to paint over the orange) and you'd get charged for having a real gun.

However, the open carry thing I am completely behind.

As far as hidden guns. I normally just keep my keltec in my pocket, I can shoot it from my pocket if need be, without anyone seeing what I'm about to do. I'd say that is good enough for me.

Painting guns is like mattress tags (sort of). There is no law preventing an end user from doing it. Only manufacturers, importers and such are prohibited from doing it.

Likewise there is no law (at least that I know of around here) prohibiting painting an orange tip on a real gun. If so, I'm in trouble:

 

[PromptCritical]

As for carry, that depends on the state laws.

I have emphatically argued for some time that, in Oregon, it is completely legal to carry anything that fits the definition of a firearm with a CHL.

As such, rifles, shotguns, machineguns, AOWs, SBRs, etc are all good to go. I ain't saying you won't be hassled. I'm just saying it's legal.

 

[deadeye]

As for carry, that depends on the state laws.

I have emphatically argued for some time that, in Oregon, it is completely legal to carry anything that fits the definition of a firearm with a CHL.

As such, rifles, shotguns, machineguns, AOWs, SBRs, etc are all good to go. I ain't saying you won't be hassled. I'm just saying it's legal.

As long as it is a handgun your OK. That's why it says Concealed Handgun License.

 

[phathom]

As long as it is a handgun your OK. That's why it says Concealed Handgun License.

That is correct, IF it is concealed
You cannot conceal a rifle (SBR or otherwise), shotgun, or AOW with a CHL. Only pistols. It is not a CWP, it is a CHL or CPL.
HOWEVER, you can open carry them, such as with a sling or other method used to carry it outside your clothing. Not saying you won't see any problems even though it is legal, but you could do it.

As far as machineguns go, if you legally own a machine pistol, you can legally (in theory) conceal it, being you are the legal owner of it, and it is a pistol, which would be covered in your CHL. So if you are concealing a machine pistol (mac-10,tec-9,G18, etc.) you would (In theory) be fine. I would hate to face the jury on that one if you had to use it though.

Prosecutor: "Can you tell me why you felt the need to shoot your attacker 31 times?"
You: "I had a full magazine and my finger clenched shut on the trigger in fear."

 

[deadeye]

That is correct, IF it is concealed
You cannot conceal a rifle (SBR or otherwise), shotgun, or AOW with a CHL. Only pistols. It is not a CWP, it is a CHL or CPL.
HOWEVER, you can open carry them, such as with a sling or other method used to carry it outside your clothing. Not saying you won't see any problems even though it is legal, but you could do it.

As far as machineguns go, if you legally own a machine pistol, you can legally (in theory) conceal it, being you are the legal owner of it, and it is a pistol, which would be covered in your CHL. So if you are concealing a machine pistol (mac-10,tec-9,G18, etc.) you would (In theory) be fine. I would hate to face the jury on that one if you had to use it though.

Prosecutor: "Can you tell me why you felt the need to shoot your attacker 31 times?"
You: "I had a full magazine and my finger clenched shut on the trigger in fear."

I agree you can carry anything openly even a machine gun if you also have the stamp to show. But you dont need the CHL to do that anyway.

 

[PromptCritical]

LOL everyone falls for it. Show me the law stating only handguns may be carried concealed with a CHL.

Edit: better yet: Tell me what I would be charged with if I was caught doing so.

 

[phathom]

LOL everyone falls for it. Show me the law stating only handguns may be carried concealed with a CHL.

Edit: better yet: Tell me what I would be charged with if I was caught doing so.

I actually just read through ORS 166 and I cannot find anything in there about concealing rifles, shotguns, SBRs, AOWs, etc.
I would be interested if anyone can point out where it references long guns and carrying them.

I guess the bigger question is, what would you conceal on you that is in those categories and how? Trenchcoat? :huh:

 

[PromptCritical]

I actually just read through ORS 166 and I cannot find anything in there about concealing rifles, shotguns, SBRs, AOWs, etc.
I would be interested if anyone can point out where it references long guns and carrying them.

I guess the bigger question is, what would you conceal on you that is in those categories and how? Trenchcoat? :huh:

ORS 166 contains only prohibitions on carrying FIREARMS.

Specifically, it says you may not carry a FIREARM concealed unless you have a CHL. That's it. The fact that the license contains the word "Handgun" is irrelevant. It could say you cannot carry a firearm concealed unless you have a driver's license. The result would be the same.

Prosecutor: "What makes you think you can carry a submachinegun concealed?"
Me: "Does a submachinegun fit the definition of firearm?"
Prosecutor: "Yes."
Me: "ORS 166 says I can carry a concealed firearm if I have a CHL. I have a CHL. A submachinegun is a firearm. May I go now?"

 

[iamme]

ORS 166 contains only prohibitions on carrying FIREARMS.

Specifically, it says you may not carry a FIREARM concealed unless you have a CHL. That's it. The fact that the license contains the word "Handgun" is irrelevant. It could say you cannot carry a firearm concealed unless you have a driver's license. The result would be the same.

My $0,02

a) ORS defines the license as a concealed handgun license, and defines Handgun as:
(5) “Handgun” means any pistol or revolver using a fixed cartridge containing a propellant charge, primer and projectile, and designed to be aimed or fired otherwise than from the shoulder.
.250 simply covers the general area of possession.

b) I'm sure they could always try to some stuff fall into;
166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

 

[PromptCritical]

My $0,02

a) ORS defines the license as a concealed handgun license, and defines Handgun as:
(5) "Handgun" means any pistol or revolver using a fixed cartridge containing a propellant charge, primer and projectile, and designed to be aimed or fired otherwise than from the shoulder.
.250 simply covers the general area of possession.

b) I'm sure they could always try to some stuff fall into;
166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

Irrelevant.

a) the fact that the license is called a "Concealed Handgun License" doesn't mean anything according to the law. It could be a "Concealed Turnip License" and still perform the same function.
The definition of "Handgun" simply defined what constitutes a handgun as a subset of "Firearm" for the use of that term in any law that actually uses it.

b) I am assuming you imply that a machine gun fits the "any similar instrument" portion of that. If your assertion were so, then any firearm would be included in that and a CHL would mean nothing. More to the point, it is plainly obvious that "any similar instrument" is intended to apply to weapons which are SIMILAR to the aforementioned items, not anything that meets the definition of weapon.

A firearm is a device which expels a projectile by burning a propellant. It does not exclude those which fire more than one. A machine gun is a firearm that also has the ability to expel projectiles repeatedly upon holding the trigger. It is still a firearm.

I just had a epiphany!

Both our arguments are also irrelevant! A machine gun is legal to carry concealed both ways!

Assume a machine gun is a firearm under the above definition.
The law states it is illegal to conceal a firearm. Then provides an exception for those with CHLs. Therefore, by that, it is legal to carry a concealed machine gun.

Assume a machine gun is not a firearm (and not "similar" to those other weapons).
There is nothing that says carrying a concealed machine gun is illegal. therefore, it is legal to carry one concealed with or without a CHL.

Which one makes the most logical sense?

Simple huh?

 

[CommandoJoe]

b) I'm sure they could always try to some stuff fall into;
166.240 Carrying of concealed weapons. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

So if I'm walking my dog, and he's wearing a coat and he is carrying my gun concealed, then I'm ok right?

 

[deadeye]

So if I'm walking my dog, and he's wearing a coat and he is carrying my gun concealed, then I'm ok right?

Not if it is a K-9 unit, you know your dog aint going to jail for ya, he's gonna rat ya out.....

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I guess the bigger question is, what would you conceal on you that is in those categories and how? Trenchcoat? :huh: