Clearing your property at night with a weapon mounted light - when using your light turns into brandishing your weapon. (Menacing)

[JRuby]

If one doesnt know what the problem is then why draw a gun and point at someone putting their life at risk who's potentially no risk to you?

Because you dont know what you dont know - it could be many things and until you know what it is you are at best guessing. Sure would hate to find out that you needed that rifle and you werent prepared.

 

[EHJ]

I'm just citing the law, not my opinion. Its illegal to point a gun at someone whose not threatening your life. If a trespasser is putting your life in danger, why are you leaving the safety of your house and going to the danger, instead of calling the police?

I'm not aiming at a trespasser - I'm at low ready with a wide beam light that illuminates the threat as well.

911 no longer responds to anything but serious crime and personal injury in Portland now. And they tell you so when you call 911.

Trespasser put his life in danger.

Welcome to Felony Flats.

 

[Koda]

I'm not aiming at a trespasser - I'm at low ready with a wide beam light that illuminates the threat as well.

911 no longer responds to anything but serious crime and personal injury in Portland now. And they tell you so when you call 911.

Trespasser put his life in danger.

Welcome to Felony Flats.

If someone approached you with a drawn gun would you not think your life was in danger?

(Ive lived in Felony Flats though, so I do feel your pain there...)

 

[Koda]

Because you dont know what you dont know - it could be many things and until you know what it is you are at best guessing. Sure would hate to find out that you needed that rifle and you werent prepared.

I cant even comprehend the idea of pulling a gun on someone I didnt know was a threat to me.

 

[JRuby]

If someone approached you with a drawn gun would you not think your life was in danger?

(Ive lived in Felony Flats though, so I do feel your pain

I cant even comprehend the idea of pulling a gun on someone I didnt know was a threat to me.

If I know that it is an individual thats one thing - I have had deer gutted less than 20 yards from my back door - takes a lot to gut a full grown healthy doe - you think maybe what ever it was could do it to a human or one of my dogs. Not going to take the chance. If that hurts your feeling - sorry about that.

 

[EHJ]

If someone approached you with a drawn gun would you not think your life was in danger?

(Ive lived in Felony Flats though, so I do feel your pain there...)

If I just got caught jumping a 7 foot fenced back yard in the middle of the night?
You bet your aaz I'd think my life was in danger!
Especially in this 'hood. My neighbors are tight.

 

[ProteanDreams]

First off, welcome to NWF and thanks for joining the thread! Remember, our "rights" extend until they infringe upon another person's rights. As others have pointed out, trespassing is not a deadly threat without other circumstance that you can articulate. It might not even be "criminal trespass" if a drunk person wanders onto your property. What if that person is an officer chasing a bad guy and now he sees someone pointing a gun at him?

We are all big boys and girls here and free to make our own choices. Hopefully threads like this provide us all with good food for thought to chew on.

Thanks for the welcome I'm happy to be here.

I certainly understand the extent of rights and where they end my articulation of that may have been poor. What I was attempting to say is that if I have said WML and I'm using it to survey my property then that particular right, IE: The ability to own and utilize said WML on my weapon to survey said property which theoretically is mine as well should, put me well within the bounds of the law, no? This also takes into account the idea of Trespass as well. A drunk person likely isn't going to be hiding in the bushes or exhibiting other such behaviors, though that's certainly a coin toss considering the nature of inebriation. So I can definitely see your point, as to the example of an officer running through the property, this is also a good point to make and one I hadn't considered in the context of criminal trespass. So, as mentioned, food for thought indeed.

WORLD of difference between on your property and inside your home. The law sees these two locations differently because my home is highly defensible property, iffy on of the yard falls under this. But even inside my home I'm searching with a handheld. I have kids and a spouse.

There is about a 20 years to life difference between ~intent of ill will~ and a deadly force threat.

Again, welcome and thanks for contributing!

I agree on there being a significant difference to On vs In, as for being inside, again I understand that everyone's situations will be different and this is (theoretically) why laws exist. I can only speak from a personal observation wherein I don't have the children to consider but, ultimately I think that the vast majority (I would hope) of firearms owners are attempting to exercise an appropriate level of responsibility and I don't believe that we are looking for an excuse to pull a trigger, I know I'm not. So if we are ever in such a situation we would be using whatever methods are available and fit within best practices to ensure the safety of ourselves and those around us, taking care not to point a weapon frivolously.

And of course with that last being said I suppose I kind of invalidate my own argument as I recall one of the basic rules of firearms safety and not pointing my weapon at anything I'm not willing to destroy.

Happy to be here and looking forward to seeing further topics that can get me to think more critically.

 

[Koda]

What I was attempting to say is that if I have said WML and I'm using it to survey my property then that particular right, IE: The ability to own and utilize said WML on my weapon to survey said property which theoretically is mine as well should, put me well within the bounds of the law, no?

The issue here isnt the individual right to clear your property weapon drawn, certainly your right. The issue is the many different results that can come from your action, key is 'your action' would be a catalyst for a variety of responses which many may turn out to not warrant using deadly force. We can present varioous scenarios to discuss but at the end its illegal to use deadly force to address a non deadly threat, trespassing in itself is a midemenor crime. This lends problems to those clinging to their rights to clear their property with presenting deadly force.

 

[ProteanDreams]

The issue here isnt the individual right to clear your property weapon drawn, certainly your right. The issue is the many different results that can come from your action, key is 'your action' would be a catalyst for a variety of responses which many may turn out to not warrant using deadly force. We can present varioous scenarios to discuss but at the end its illegal to use deadly force to address a non deadly threat, trespassing in itself is a midemenor crime. This lends problems to those clinging to their rights to clear their property with presenting deadly force.

That certainly makes sense to me, I don't think the objective here is the utilization of deadly force or looking for the situation in which to apply it. So I can agree with that outlook. Again, I agree that Trespass in itself is not the reason behind pointing the weapon at anyone but the actions which may follow said trespass. I concede that a WML which requires my weapon to be pointing at a target (based on training) it is natural that my weapon be pointing at what my light is illuminating since my barrel is going to be pointed at what I'm looking at. So, the option of using a secondary form of illumination which was presented seems to be the better course of action with weapon available if needed. At least that's what I've come to by reading through these posts.

 

[sobo]

I concede that a WML which requires my weapon to be pointing at a target (based on training) it is natural that my weapon be pointing at what my light is illuminating since my barrel is going to be pointed at what I'm looking at.

You are in error. See here.

A high-output WML can easily and readily illuminate quite an area with just its halo, without pointing the barrel of the gun at anything other than the ground.
Just use the low-ready position and a WML with 500 lumens or more. As little as 300 lumens still works, but more is better in this case.

 

[ProteanDreams]

You are in error. See here.

A high-output WML can easily and readily illuminate quite an area with just its halo, without pointing the barrel of the gun at anything other than the ground.
Just use the low-ready position and a WML with 500 lumens or more. As little as 300 lumens still works, but more is better in this case.

I'm not saying that you can't utilize a WML's halo to illuminate an area, I'm saying that my personal training dictates that my barrel is sighted on what I'm looking at. It is a hard bit of training to break from and it's why I've conceded that it might be better that I use a secondary source of illumination rather than a WML, but this is for me personally. If you do not have this particular issue then it really isn't a problem for you. Your mileage may vary.

 

[EHJ]

Just use the low-ready position and a WML with 500 lumens or more. As little as 300 lumens still works, but more is better in this case.

Tactical Strobe Mode at Full Power.

 

[Koda]

You are in error. See here.

A high-output WML can easily and readily illuminate quite an area with just its halo, without pointing the barrel of the gun at anything other than the ground.
Just use the low-ready position and a WML with 500 lumens or more. As little as 300 lumens still works, but more is better in this case.

Isnt a drawn gun considered a deadly force threat?

 

[sobo]

I'm not saying that you can't utilize a WML's halo to illuminate an area, I'm saying that my personal training dictates that my barrel is sighted on what I'm looking at. It is a hard bit of training to break from and it's why I've conceded that it might be better that I use a secondary source of illumination rather than a WML, but this is for me personally. If you do not have this particular issue then it really isn't a problem for you. Your mileage may vary.

Indeed my mileage does vary, and I took it upon myself to get trained and to break ingrained, unsafe habits. I have spent many thousands of dollars and taken many many hours of firearms training classes, to include over 16 hours (on 3 separate occasions) specifically devoted to low-light/no-light training and room/house/property clearing exercises, to break myself of these bad habits under discussion in this thread.

My barrel is never pointed at anything but the ground until I have determined the target and decided to engage same. This is quite different than walking around pointing a WML at things/shadows/sounds to determine what they might be. You have already read my post about checking my property with a MagLite in my one hand and hand on holstered pistol in the other, so no further mention of that is necessary.

Please know that I am not criticizing your particular method per se, because that is your personal preference. But to state that one cannot see what one's barrel isn't pointing directly at is patently untrue.

 

[EHJ]

My barrel is never pointed at anything but the ground until I have determined the target and decided to engage same. This is quite different than walking around pointing a WML at things/shadows/sounds to determine what they might be. You have already read my post about checking my property with a MagLite in my one hand and hand on holstered pistol in the other, so no further mention of that is necessary.

Please know that I am not criticizing your particular method per se, because that is your personal preference. But to state that one cannot see what one's barrel isn't pointing directly at is patently untrue.

I'm the one sweeping my backyard 'point blank' with the Disco Light hanging on the front of a cannon.

NFG

 

[sobo]

Isnt a drawn gun considered a deadly force threat?

No, not necessarily so. Consider these scenarios...
Is the gun pointed at someone? Then yes, it can be, and most likely is.
Is your rifle at port arms or your pistol in sul or low-ready? Then no, it isn't.
Are you waving your rifle or pistol around wildly in the air? Then yes, that's menacing, or brandishing at the very least.

So, in answer to your question, as it regards the incident on my property in March 2016, my local LE organization did not believe so.
Since I never pointed the muzzle at anything that was not a threat, they took no issue with my tactics.

But as I said back on Page 1 of this thread, I live in eastern WA and my local LE organization might have a different opinion than does an LE org west of the Cascades.

 

[The Heretic]

Isnt a drawn gun considered a deadly force threat?

Most of the time I use a shotgun when clearing my property.

How do you holster a shotgun?

Also, as with just about any issue, context is everything; walking around my property with a firearm at my side, pointed down - I would not consider that a deadly force threat. Now if some trespasser (NOT a neighbor, they ALL have my explicit permission to be on my property) has a firearm, at night, and is on my property, then THAT is what I would consider to be a probable deadly threat.

Again, context; since I live on forested acreage in the boonies, and coexist with wildlife, including large predators that are possibly dangerous (cougar, bears, etc.), then walking around on that acreage with a firearm is not assumed to be threatening, and it is actually not uncommon. If a landowner is checking out a noise or whatever (with me, it is when something has caused my motion detector lights to be turned on), then it is considered prudent to carry a firearm on your person, and a lot of landowners opt for a shotgun.

Suburban/urban dwellers, different context.

 

[Koda]

How do you holster a shotgun?

Im only referring to pistols, longarms are different. If someone approached you with a drawn pistol would you feel your life was in danger?

 

[sobo]

Im only referring to pistols, longarms are different. If someone approached you with a drawn pistol would you feel your life was in danger?

Can't speak for @The Heretic, but for me, no.
But as I observe this person approach me, I will be assessing his/her language, demeanor, facial expression, body position, etc.
Any abnormality in those parameters would likely cause me to surreptitiously place my hand upon the grip.
And all things change when the person raises their pistol from low-ready.

The way I see it is this:
If two people are squared off, both with guns drawn, then the situation has escalated to a point that is difficult from which to retreat/back down.
OTOH, if the other person has already drawn, and I place my hand on the grip of my holstered sidearm, this action alone may very well cause the other to rethink their position, and de-escalate the situation.
And if they don't, I believe that my training puts me in a position to draw and engage almost, if not faster, than they can take aim and shoot me.
Unless, of course, I'm up against Jerry Miculek.

Obviously, I never want to test my theory...

 

[ProteanDreams]

Indeed my mileage does vary, and I took it upon myself to get trained and to break ingrained, unsafe habits. I have spent many thousands of dollars and taken many many hours of firearms training classes, to include over 16 hours (on 3 separate occasions) specifically devoted to low-light/no-light training and room/house/property clearing exercises, to break myself of these bad habits under discussion in this thread.

My barrel is never pointed at anything but the ground until I have determined the target and decided to engage same. This is quite different than walking around pointing a WML at things/shadows/sounds to determine what they might be. You have already read my post about checking my property with a MagLite in my one hand and hand on holstered pistol in the other, so no further mention of that is necessary.

Please know that I am not criticizing your particular method per se, because that is your personal preference. But to state that one cannot see what one's barrel isn't pointing directly at is patently untrue.

I certainly applaud your dedication to training. While I did not have to pay for my training with funds it came at a somewhat different cost and the ingrained habits of room clearing and IMT's might be a little more of a challenge to overcome. Thank you for your input, I'll certainly take it into consideration. Until I am confident that old habits have been secured, I'll do my best to avoid a charlie foxtrot.