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...While I did not have to pay for my training with funds it came at a somewhat different cost and the ingrained habits of room clearing and IMT's...
I think I see now where you're coming from...
I am not a veteran, and I came to my stance on firearms training through a different avenue than I suspect you did.
If my supposition is correct, your path to the present, as it regards firearms, had an entirely different focus and objective, and I thank you for your service.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I land with the JRuby perspective.

I live rural. No help available for 40 minutes, unless help comes from neighbors. Then it's still 10 minutes.

So the only light I grab is mounted. It has a pressure pad.

Indoors or out, the light is only on when I squeeze the pad.

IMO - unless you have already been spotted, a threat cannot determine whether you are illuminating them with a flashlight or a weapon light.

If I want, I can hold the platform away from my body and then actuate the light. Same thing as holding flashlight away from body.

My personal preference is to use home turf advantage, stealth, and cover.

In 15 years, I've only cleared this house twice in the dead of night. Both times, it was clear before I cleared it, thankfully.
 
Im only referring to pistols, longarms are different. If someone approached you with a drawn pistol would you feel your life was in danger?

Again, it depends on the context. In the context of this discussion, I would assume I was either the trespasser or the landowner. If I knew the person, such as a neighbor, then the answer would be no as I neither killed his dog nor was I messing with his family/wife/daughter. If I did not know the person and I was on my own land, then the answer would be yes and I would take appropriate steps to prepare to defend myself. If I was on someone else's land I would probably hold up my empty hands to show that I meant no harm.
 
Again, it depends on the context. In the context of this discussion, I would assume I was either the trespasser or the landowner. If I knew the person, such as a neighbor, then the answer would be no as I neither killed his dog nor was I messing with his family/wife/daughter. If I did not know the person and I was on my own land, then the answer would be yes and I would take appropriate steps to prepare to defend myself. If I was on someone else's land I would probably hold up my empty hands to show that I meant no harm.

Yes, but before we dive into specific scenarios, my only point is that trespassing in itself isn't a deadly force encounter, this means we need to include the scenario that not all cases of trespassing have criminal intentions and introducing a gun into the situation can change the whole dynamic against you if the trespasser did not have criminal intentions. I know and trust you enough here to know you'd handle any situation well but I'm referring to the context of this discussion of the idea of clearing ones property with only a WML isn't so straight forward a solution to a bump in the night.

Maybe whats being missed here is the idea that a trespasser has criminal intentions when in reality there are many reasons one may be trespassing without criminal intentions. If I felt a trespasser had criminal intentions I wouldn't confront them Id call 911 from inside even if it took 20 minutes I don't see why I need to enter the liability of having to defend myself and justify those actions over 20 minutes.

I do wonder though what the law allows in defense of personal property stored outside the home (shed, barn, backyard, deck etc.) I imagine one does have a right to physically stop someone from stealing your stuff but theft isnt a deadly force encounter either....

legal reference: ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person - 2020 Oregon Revised Statutes
 
I do wonder though what the law allows in defense of personal property stored outside the home (shed, barn, backyard, deck etc.) I imagine one does have a right to physically stop someone from stealing your stuff but theft isnt a deadly force encounter either....


 


yeah, I will stay away from suggesting citizens arrest if one has to arm themselves to do it. Thing to remember here is private citizens don't have the same legal immunities as police when things go sideways especially if you intentionally leave the house to make the arrest.
 
yeah, I will stay away from suggesting citizens arrest if one has to arm themselves to do it. Thing to remember here is private citizens don't have the same legal immunities as police when things go sideways especially if you intentionally leave the house to make the arrest.
If you truly want to stop someone from stealing your car or possessions - this is they only way to do it.
And immunity is unnecessary if you are in the right.

I've gone thru this routine twice now. The first time I was schooled by the responding officer as to how to prepare my statement.

Bonus: Even if a DA would regularly have dropped the charge for a theft or other crime committed on myself by another - a citizens arrest mandates a full proceeding and motion towards indictment.
Anytime you restrain a suspect and wait for an officer - you are already, technically - making a citizens arrest.

The conciseness of the two statutes alone is key. :)
 
If you truly want to stop someone from stealing your car or possessions - this is they only way to do it.
And immunity is unnecessary if you are in the right.
Agree its the only way, and that in a trespassing case if someones stealing stuff it would probably be easy to prove your in the right. The concern is Ive examples of actual cops showing up for prowler theft calls that end up in a fight then the whole world comes unglued and they get indicted for shooting the suspect. I cant imagine it would go easier for a private citizen.
 
Agree its the only way, and that in a trespassing case if someones stealing stuff it would probably be easy to prove your in the right. The concern is Ive examples of actual cops showing up for prowler theft calls that end up in a fight then the whole world comes unglued and they get indicted for shooting the suspect. I cant imagine it would go easier for a private citizen.
It's an entirely new ball game in Portland now with regards to police interactions now as a complainant. (If need be.)
I'm not being hyperbolic when I say they literally do not show up for suspicious activity calls - much less responding to theft calls unless it's a car - or personal injury.

They respect folks protecting their own more and more these days.

(I was this thread's OP.)
 
If someone is on my property, they have passed signs and a gate, and they will get the opportunity to be face down on the ground until the sheriff arrives. Its pretty hard to hold a telephone and a flashlight and a firearm without a third arm, weapons mounted light sounds like a good idea.
 
Yes, but before we dive into specific scenarios, my only point is that trespassing in itself isn't a deadly force encounter, this means we need to include the scenario that not all cases of trespassing have criminal intentions and introducing a gun into the situation can change the whole dynamic against you if the trespasser did not have criminal intentions. I know and trust you enough here to know you'd handle any situation well but I'm referring to the context of this discussion of the idea of clearing ones property with only a WML isn't so straight forward a solution to a bump in the night.

Maybe whats being missed here is the idea that a trespasser has criminal intentions when in reality there are many reasons one may be trespassing without criminal intentions. If I felt a trespasser had criminal intentions I wouldn't confront them Id call 911 from inside even if it took 20 minutes I don't see why I need to enter the liability of having to defend myself and justify those actions over 20 minutes.

I do wonder though what the law allows in defense of personal property stored outside the home (shed, barn, backyard, deck etc.) I imagine one does have a right to physically stop someone from stealing your stuff but theft isnt a deadly force encounter either....

legal reference: ORS 161.219 - Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person - 2020 Oregon Revised Statutes

This is correct. If you can't identify your target you have no business pointing a gun at it. See: Jeff Cooper's rules. In addition to what you pointed out about intention, it's just simply unlawful to do outside of the home, even on your own property. In Oregon and Washington it is unlawful to use deadly force to stop crimes that do not pose an immediate and credible threat to the life or limb of yourself or an innocent bystander.

To those of you who have done something different and not gotten in trouble for it- remember that the police do not actually know the law, nor are they required to. We all know this so I'm not sure why folks are citing the police supporting their actions as evidence their actions were lawful.

So yes, if someone is breaking into your car outside your home (and you are not inside) you can't use your gun to stop them, even if that means they get away with your property. That may be frustrating for some but we don't live in a vigilante society where petty crimes are a capital offense.

I encourage folks to get professional training in both actual tactics/strategy and the moral/legal implications of DGU. If you want some extra piece of mind join the ACLDN- in addition to the legal benefits of the network they also provide a ton of good info to members about scenarios just like this every month.

edit: also those of you openly fantasizing about shooting trespassers or whatnot should take note that social media posts have been used in prosecutions before as proof of premeditation.
 
To those of you who have done something different and not gotten in trouble for it- remember that the police do not actually know the law, nor are they required to. We all know this so I'm not sure why folks are citing the police supporting their actions as evidence their actions were lawful.

This is worth highlighting and also worth adding that the police do not have the final say in indicting you with crimes, even if they didnt arrest you.

Its been discouraging to read 7 pages of debate on an unsafe or potentially disproportional illegal action in a forum of people supporting responsible gun use, its encouraging to finally get another confirmation thank you @DukeLancington . The ACLDN is a great source for legal training.
 
I am under no restrictions in using any physical force necessary to detain a criminal.
Nowhere have I said that I condone actually shooting someone I find prowling on my property.
My 'justifiable fearfulness' is subjective to the individual (me) when I am in the process of detaining a criminal caught in the act and his response to it.
If - when apprehending a perpetrator - he then goes to attack me with deadly force - then I am well within my right to return deadly force to stop his threat. (ORS 161.255). My first physical act upon him (ORS 133.225) is covered as an apprehension.


Apprehending a criminal and transferring them to a LEO is not living, "in a vigilante society". It's taking appropriate responsibility for my own life, home and personal environment.

edit: also those of you openly fantasizing about shooting trespassers or whatnot should take note that social media posts have been used in prosecutions before as proof of premeditation.

Just caught this. This was totally unnecessary and bordering on being presumptive and condescending.
 
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I am under no restrictions in using any physical force necessary to detain a criminal.
Nowhere have I said that I condone actually shooting someone I find prowling on my property.
My 'justifiable fearfulness' is subjective to the individual (me) when I am in the process of detaining a criminal caught in the act and his response to it.
If - when apprehending a perpetrator - he then goes to attack me with deadly force - then I am well within my right to return deadly force to stop his threat. (ORS 161.255). My first physical act upon him (ORS 133.225) is covered as an apprehension.


Apprehending a criminal and transferring them to a LEO is not living, "in a vigilante society". It's taking appropriate responsibility for my own life, home and personal environment.

Yes you are, it is not lawful to use deadly force to detain people who are not an imminent and credible threat to life/limb. It literally says that in ORS 161.255. I have no idea why you'd want to open yourself up to that legal liability. And I made that comment because it's factually accurate and actually creepy for people to do so!
 
Yes you are, it is not lawful to use deadly force to detain people who are not an imminent and credible threat to life/limb. It literally says that in ORS 161.255. I have no idea why you'd want to open yourself up to that legal liability. And I made that comment because it's factually accurate and actually creepy for people to do so!

(1) A private person may arrest another person for any crime committed in the presence of the private person if the private person has probable cause to believe the arrested person committed the crime. A private person making such an arrest shall, without unnecessary delay, take the arrested person before a magistrate or deliver the arrested person to a peace officer.

(2) In order to make the arrest a private person may use physical force as is justifiable under ORS 161.255 (Use of physical force by private person making citizen's arrest). [1973 c.836 §74]
I never said I was using deadly force to detain anyone.
I can use any and all other physical force I need to detain them.
If I then feel I am in fear of my life from deadly force - then yes, I can meet that force appropriately.

Twice in my life I have gone through this very same scenario.
The first time I was coached by a responding Supervisor - the second, a Multnomah Co DA actually interviewed me and outlined what my statement should reflect.

Some people are active participants in their own lives... Some are just observers while waiting on others to care for them.

I am definitely not the later.
 
Not even when your clearing your property with a drawn gun WML? How is a trespasser supposed to respond to a deadly force threat?
All he sees is 1000 lumen strobe in his face while hearing me scream commands to him at the top of my lungs.
And low ready is not a deadly force threat.

I'm not here to argue - and I appreciate your opinion - but you don't live where I live. The rules are different here. Trust me.
 
All he sees is 1000 lumen strobe in his face while hearing me scream commands to him at the top of my lungs.
And low ready is not a deadly force threat.

I'm not here to argue - and I appreciate your opinion - but you don't live where I live. The rules are different here. Trust me.
Not arguing just discussing, sometimes its a good exercise to debate and discuss our understandings of the laws thus here we are. And I have lived in your neighborhood, I certainly wouldnt leave my dwelling to go confront a trespassing prowler there. Im not certain screaming commands with 1000 lumens is proportional to mere trespassing but I will disagree low ready is not a deadly force threat.
 
Not arguing just discussing, sometimes its a good exercise to debate and discuss our understandings of the laws thus here we are. And I have lived in your neighborhood, I certainly wouldnt leave my dwelling to go confront a trespassing prowler there. Im not certain screaming commands with 1000 lumens is proportional to mere trespassing but I will disagree low ready is not a deadly force threat.

My 4 block neighborhood has a reputation. All homeowners. We are ceaselessly battling a constant attack by night prowlers and vandals and street homesteaders. We are all very familiar with our local precinct and it's patrol officers. When responding (eventually) to larger thefts and incidents we are all met with, "So, what do you think you can do to stop this..?" Police have their hands tied. We are literally being left to our own devices here now.
So we figured setting examples may work better.
It does.
It always has.

Apparently we're all fresh out of Grandmothers and common sense Shame. :(
 
My 4 block neighborhood has a reputation. All homeowners. We are ceaselessly battling a constant attack by night prowlers and vandals and street homesteaders. We are all very familiar with our local precinct and it's patrol officers. When responding (eventually) to larger thefts and incidents we are all met with, "So, what do you think you can do to stop this..?" Police have their hands tied. We are literally being left to our own devices here now.
So we figured setting examples may work better.
It does.
It always has.

Apparently we're all fresh out of Grandmothers and common sense Shame. :(
Had a guy high as a kite just walk in the house, didn't want to leave... we escorted him out.
Id be frustrated with an escalation of prowling and vandals, I get the frustration. Police are thin being called to protests downtown....
If it was me id put a zoom on my dlsr and light them up with that 1000L handheld, from my window. Would have the same deterrent effect, but with actual evidence the police can use.
 

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