Clark Co deputy shoots & kills off-duty Vancouver police officer

[arakboss]

I'm ex LEO and I would not of come out straight on; I would've maneuvered around the individual In a way that he did not see me so as to get the upper hand and keep my sidearm trained on them at all times, if he did not adhere to commands and came closer to me with a weapon in a violent way I would've shot him.

That is what he did. The perp was on the porch and the cop came out the side of the garage. I am guessing he may have fired on the perp but was afraid of putting bullets in the house where his wife was?

 

[Alexx1401]

That is what he did. The perp was on the porch and the cop came out the side of the garage. I am guessing he may have fired on the perp but was afraid of putting bullets in the house where his wife was?

So instead he let the scum stab him and lost control of his gun? He should have just stayed in the house and if the scum gets in? Mag dump on him. He knew the guy was out there, yet made the choice to go out after him without any markings on him to show he was a good guy. VERY costly mistake and now the other Cop has to live with this the rest of his life.

 

[arakboss]

So instead he let the scum stab him and lost control of his gun? He should have just stayed in the house and if the scum gets in? Mag dump on him. He knew the guy was out there, yet made the choice to go out after him without any markings on him to show he was a good guy. VERY costly mistake and now the other Cop has to live with this the rest of his life.

I would assume he treated the situation as if he were on duty. If he was trained to hide in a structure from perp then I guess that is what he should have done.

 

[arakboss]

The deputy who fired the shots did so with in seconds of arriving. Was the deceased even made aware that deputies were on scene, did he point his weapon towards them, did they give him any commands to drop his weapon, were deputies made aware by dispatcher that homeowner was armed and engaging with perp? Lot's of unanswered questions at this point but from what little we know I think deputies were too quick to fire on the homeowner.

 

[WillametteWill]

Any LEOs in the house? I would like to hear a LEOs take on the decision to come out of the house and detain the perp. Just a guess but it might be almost an automatic response for him to do so. But I'm not a LEO so I'm totally guessing on that. I know that we view things from our own lens so sometimes it hard to imagine viewing it from someone else's like this officer who has been in law enforcement a long time. I know one thing, it took courage to do it that's for sure. And these guys display that kind of courage most every day I think.

Retired LEO, not going to Monday morning QB but will say this. When you are off duty, you have to remember you don't have back up on the other end of a radio, you are not wearing a vest, you don't have all your tools (Taser, baton, cuffs, pepper spray), you may not have the same flashlight you are used to using, you very likely do not have a retention holster full size duty gun, your off duty gun may not have a WML that you are used to. You are not in a uniform identifying yourself as a good guy. As citizen defenders, we are basically in this same boat.

We all must determine our own, very personal, rules of engagement. What is important for us individually. Is family our ultimate priority or might we risk our own lives in defense of strangers? Or what about fellow (or former fellow) officers? Or to stop a felon? It will behoove us all to give this some serious consideration in advance of the SHTF. There is not a right or wrong answer, it is extremely unique and personal.

Most officers are officers because they are wired to help selflessly. There are plenty of others who are not officers with the same mindset. Sadly, there is far more risk with this. My prayers are with everyone involved in this tragedy.

 

[arakboss]

How are we as "good guys" suppose to mark ourselves from perps when cops respond? If being in LEO uniform is our only option to keep from getting shot when LEOs and civilians meet each other then we are screwed.

 

[arakboss]

Retired LEO, not going to Monday morning QB but will say this. When you are off duty, you have to remember you don't have back up on the other end of a radio, you are not wearing a vest, you don't have all your tools (Taser, baton, cuffs, pepper spray), you may not have the same flashlight you are used to using, you very likely do not have a retention holster full size duty gun, your off duty gun may not have a WML that you are used to. You are not in a uniform identifying yourself as a good guy. As citizen defenders, we are basically in this same boat.

We all must determine our own, very personal, rules of engagement. What is important for us individually. Is family our ultimate priority or might we risk our own lives in defense of strangers? Or what about fellow (or former fellow) officers? Or to stop a felon? It will behoove us all to give this some serious consideration in advance of the SHTF. There is not a right or wrong answer, it is extremely unique and personal.

Most officers are officers because they are wired to help selflessly. There are plenty of others who are not officers with the same mindset. Sadly, there is far more risk with this. My prayers are with everyone involved in this tragedy.

"As citizen defenders, we are basically in this same boat."

This is why LEOs need to take more time assessing who's who before pulling the trigger on civilians. Especially at night, especially through rifle sights or unmagnified optic on a rifle from who knows how far away. I think as more details come out, more blame will be shifted towards deputy who fired the shots.

 

[WillametteWill]

How are we as "good guys" suppose to mark ourselves from perps when cops respond? If being in LEO uniform is our only option to keep from getting shot when LEOs and civilians meet each other then we are screwed.

And this is yet another area that we need to seriously think about as citizen defenders before it happens. Mas Ayoob has great info about these considerations.

 

[American123]

I would assume he treated the situation as if he were on duty. If he was trained to hide in a structure from perp then I guess that is what he should have done.

They probably train them to shoot people who are trying to stab them too, he should have done that.

 

[ob1]

I agree that the VPD officer should have some sort of visible LE ID available to him, LE marked vest, raid jacket...something.
But more to the point, if he made telephone contact with the SO dispatch.... why didn't he properly identify and describe himself to the SO dispatcher, as he knew one of their cars would be enroute.
This could have been quickly verified between agencies, giving the responding car a heads up to the situation.

 

[arakboss]

I agree that the VPD officer should have some sort of visible LE ID available to him, LE marked vest, raid jacket...something.
But more to the point, if he made telephone contact with the SO dispatch.... why didn't he properly identify and describe himself to the SO dispatcher, as he knew one of their cars would be enroute.
This could have been quickly verified between agencies, giving the responding car a heads up to the situation.

My understanding was the wife made the 911 call. It doesn't sound to me like the deputy made much effort to identify who he/she was shooting at.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

What was done right or wrong here in the OP , I ain't going to comment on.

However , I say that when you are defending yourself , household or even property , much is beyond your control.

Such as :

Just how the criminal reacts to your actions,...Criminals will not play by your rules.
So they are unpredictable at best.
Also never underestimate your opponent's will to live.

How the responding officer / officers view the scene when they arrive or just what information they have about what it going on , is also beyond your control.

I would suggest that if you are ever in this type of situation to :

Remain in contact with the police dispatcher and give continuing updates on who is doing what and where they are located .
( If possible , you may be alone and that will make the above difficult to do )
Also note that this is now a real life game of "telephone" and information given and received may be wrong.

Not get stuck on a plan...as in always react a certain way if something happens.
Plans are important , but you need to be a adaptable and flexible thinker as well.

Do the most while doing the least .
By this I mean to say that you may not have a clear picture of what is actually going on .
Going by instinct , or emotion , as well as blindly following your plan can lead to trouble.
Take a moment to think...and continually assess the situation , do not be unwilling to break contact or even defend in place.
Do what you need to do to survive , while doing so with the least amount of risk to you.
Andy
Edit to clear up pre-coffee typing.

 

[Jay Walk]

Woulda, coulda and shoulda.

The criminal just stabbed you three times and is now breaking into your home occupied by your wife.

Reports this morning are that the wife too was stabbed.

 

[Spitpatch]

All the armchair quarterback speculation, procedural criticism and " woulda-coulda-shoulda" from the situation itself can be dispensed with, since the fundamentals were not engaged.

The responding on-duty officer with the rifle neglected "Old No. 3" from the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety:

3. Be sure of the target and what is in front of it and beyond it.

Know the identifying features of the game you hunt....

 

[MarshalChillN]

What I can't get my head around, is a LEO with a few years of service allowing a perp with a knife to get close enough to stab him. Why didn't he 'mag dump' / stop the threat ?

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Additional info in this article. Suspect charged with attempted murder. The gun he was using was an airsoft gun. Etc

One thing I noticed is they said they look for compliance to the orders to "freeze the scene" such as "get on your knees". Makes me wonder if deputy gave those commands and the off duty LEO, being a LEO, did not comply with the commands because he is used to being on the side that gives the commands. If u have given those commands for 20+ years it may be automatic to continue to pursue the perp when your partner/fellow LEO gives the command. It might take an unnatural shift of thinking for the off duty LEO to get on his knees himself. Again just guessing.

Perhaps deputy arrived on scene, saw a man with a gun (the off duty LEO) pursuing another person, gave the command, man with gun did not comply, shoot.

Suspect in Vancouver crime spree charged with attempted murder of off-duty officer

It was a crime spree that started at a Chevron in Vancouver and ended with an off-duty officer's death in Battle Ground. PREVIOUS COVERAGE:Deputy shoots, kills off-duty Vancouver PD officer who fought robbery suspect at his home. On Monday, 20-year-old Julio Segura from Yakima, Washington...

katu.com

 

[Jay Walk]

What I can't get my head around, is a LEO with a few years of service allowing a perp with a knife to get close enough to stab him. Why didn't he 'mag dump' / stop the threat ?

Maybe because of headlines like...

VPD officer shoots/Kills unarmed trespasser.

Or however they twist it around to read Cops Murder Another One

 

[bkroger86]

More details in the paper today: https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/20...ancouver-police-officer-died-at-his-home.html

This is a classic worst case scenario in a home defense situation. Trigger happy PD arrives at a call and lights up the homeowner instead of the bad guy.

The thin blue line would have swept this under the rug if the homeowner was some random Joe Schmoe, but since the homeowner was also PD, it's going to be a turf war for the PD union lawyers. We'll see who wins, but my guess is it gets swept under the rug for the "good of the whole".

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Forgetting about the human tragedy part for a second and looking from an "academic" type perspective, this case is kind of unique I think because the homeowner could have acted as a civilian homeowner or as a LEO (similar to what willamettewill said above).

Acting as a LEO, was he influenced by recent laws, (described by Jaywalk in an above post), political push to protect crims, and maybe not act as forcefully as he could have? Since apparently he trained other LEOS (I think) was he hyper-aware of this new emphasis on being "gentle" to crims?

If he acted only as a homeowner (ie let's pretend he could temporarily totally forget he was a cop), would he not have left the house to engage the perp? If he had engaged, such as if crim broke into house, would he be more open to using deadly force immediately, with no new pressure to use restraint on crims?

Just hypothetical BS I guess but it is interesting from the homeowner vs LEO standpoint. And again taking nothing away from this man's courage. He even continued to try to apprehend the perp after being stabbed 3 times.

 

[bbbass]

I'm ex LEO and I would not of come out straight on; I would've maneuvered around the individual In a way that he did not see me so as to get the upper hand and keep my sidearm trained on them at all times, if he did not adhere to commands and came closer to me with a weapon in a violent way I would've shot him.

Hey Rob,

Would you have gone "hands on" with the guy, or would you have waited for backup to arrive?

Seems like there are so many ways for things to go wrong in a situation like this. Normally, as a non-LEO, I'd stay inside the house. We can't ask the off duty why he went outside, but one would presume it was because he was a LEO and wired that way. Whatever mistakes he made it's all guessing and monday morning qb at this point. No possible way to get enough info to make a reasoned judgement on his actions.