Poll: Braced Firearm Interest Poll

[Flopsweat]

Minus all the typos right? Man that needs some fixing up. . .

Sometimes the message transcends the typos. Not always, but this time for sure.

 

[lucusloc]

Sometimes the message transcends the typos. Not always, but this time for sure.

Well that is nice to say. I am still fixing it anyway

 

[sobo]

I haven't seen this side of you Flop. You're starting to remind me of @sobo when folks bad mouth the Sigs. Next, you'll be using:

 

[Knobgoblin]

I disagree. I think violating the spirit of the law while staying firmly within the law itself is a demonstration to our "betters" that it does not matter what they do, we will find a way to ignore them and make them show themselves for what they are. We complied with your dumb law and we still did what we wanted to, now what?

We force them to drop the mask and abandon the rule of law to come after us.

The ATF has demonstrated time and time again they are more than willing to do this, and this behavior is seeping into the public consciousness more an more. ATF memes are showing up on non-firearms related boards, centrist aligned blogs are talking about ATF overreach and violations and opinions are changing. And this works better for us when we comply with the law than when we don't. I am not saying I will harp on anyone solidly on the "I will not comply" bandwagon, they have their point and their place in the political landscape as well, but what I am saying is that these two types of people are on the same team, they are working towards the same goals in different ways, and those ways absolutely work together.

This is why innovation at the edge of the NFA is essential. We need to push the boundary right up over that edge, and do so in a way that stays exactly within the letter of the law. Full auto without tripping a single line of legislation. SBR/SBS everything without a legally recognized stock in sight. The ATF really does not want to go to court on what a receiver is? Let's design a dozen new unorthodox firearms that violate all the design principles the ATF uses to decide where to put a serial number and force the ATF to step into court to sort it out. This is not compliance, this is defiance with an explicit dare to challenge us on it and risk full exposure for who they really are and what they really are about.

They really do not want that because such exposure would cause them a real headache with low information voters who still prefer the illusion of "equal protection", "just rule of law" and all the other legal niceties they believe we all operate under.Meanwhile the ATF et. al. want to operate 100% in the realm of extralegal letters, bureaucratic rulings that impact only their target (divide and conquer donchaknow) and rule-making they can use to enforce whatever the hell they want with only a fictional fig leaf of the cover of legislative law. If we let them do that they win, because the greater public will simply assume that they have full legislative powers to do that. This assumption will give the courts cover to continue deference and maintain the air if impartial and just application of the law. This is the fiction they want to maintain, and the fiction we must destroy with raw, naked, driven innovation. Every new innovation we put out there and popularize is one more rung on the ladder that will drag our fellow countrymen into the light of reality.

 

[sobo]

Now that the braced firearm ban has been slapped down, I am wondering if the interest in them will be revived or has the fad come and gone?

You failed to add the option, "I went about my life like nothing had changed", so I couldn't vote...

Not so much a "I will not comply" as it was a "IDGAFF about your stupid 'rule' change"...

 

[Bobbygun]

Every new innovation we put out there and popularize is one more rung on the ladder that will drag our fellow countrymen into the light of reality.

Very good post and I dig what you're saying. But... (always a "but"), I don't think it's quite that simple. There is at least some danger. I think of my 84 year-old mom. She's not a big fan of the AR-15. I don't believe she would vote to have mine confiscated at this point, but she finds them scary. I point out they operate pretty much the same as a Remington 742 (not scary). However, if the other side were to point out to her that the AR-15 can somewhat simulate a machine gun with the use of a bump stock or special trigger gadget, it could sway her vote against me.

To be clear, I'm not against bump stocks or binary triggers, but you're not going to drag my mom "into the light of reality" with them. Quite the opposite.

 

[JRMadrid]

To each their own.

Just like banning diesels because some people don't know how to not eject black smoke out of the back of them.

Why criticize anyone for their choices when it's just that; NOYFB

 

[Flopsweat]

Very good post and I dig what you're saying. But... (always a "but"), I don't think it's quite that simple. There is at least some danger. I think of my 84 year-old mom. She's not a big fan of the AR-15. I don't believe she would vote to have mine confiscated at this point, but she finds them scary. I point out they operate pretty much the same as a Remington 742 (not scary). However, if the other side were to point out to her that the AR-15 can somewhat simulate a machine gun with the use of a bump stock or special trigger gadget, it could sway her vote against me.

To be clear, I'm not against bump stocks or binary triggers, but you're not going to drag my mom "into the light of reality" with them. Quite the opposite.

It's not expected to work on everyone. I have a sister who won't allow an AR-15 in her house. She knows it's mechanically the same as less scary looking guns but that's just how she feels. Still she went shooting with us and stood calmly by while her son shot my AR-9 and a bunch of other PCCs. She's a very good shot too. We make what progress we can.

 

[lucusloc]

Very good post and I dig what you're saying. But... (always a "but"), I don't think it's quite that simple. There is at least some danger. I think of my 84 year-old mom. She's not a big fan of the AR-15. I don't believe she would vote to have mine confiscated at this point, but she finds them scary. I point out they operate pretty much the same as a Remington 742 (not scary). However, if the other side were to point out to her that the AR-15 can somewhat simulate a machine gun with the use of a bump stock or special trigger gadget, it could sway her vote against me.

To be clear, I'm not against bump stocks or binary triggers, but you're not going to drag my mom "into the light of reality" with them. Quite the opposite.

So make a bump stock for the 742. Make a bump stock for everything to drive the point home. At some point the inoculation against fear is immersion. Familiarity breeds complacency. That was the whole point of the NFA in the first place; make it so the vast majority of people could not gain familiarity with the banned objects. Remove them from the public consciousness and then kill that part of the industry. Once that is gone move on to the next bit. We need to reverse the trend, and we need to risk polarizing a subset of people to do it. In many way this really is a "if you are not for us you are against us" situation, and we need to bring that reality to light too.

 

[Bobbygun]

It's not expected to work on everyone. I have a sister who won't allow an AR-15 in her house. She knows it's mechanically the same as less scary looking guns but that's just how she feels. Still she went shooting with us and stood calmly by while her son shot my AR-9 and a bunch of other PCCs. She's a very good shot too. We make what progress we can.

I agree. I guess what scares me the most is, my mom grew up in a different era that wasn't nearly as soft as what the young people today are experiencing with their "safe spaces" and "social justice warriors", etc. If she's scared, they'll be even more scared. She's a very good shot too.

 

[Bobbygun]

So make a bump stock for the 742. Make a bump stock for everything to drive the point home. At some point the inoculation against fear is immersion. Familiarity breeds complacency. That was the whole point of the NFA in the first place; make it so the vast majority of people could not gain familiarity with the banned objects. Remove them from the public consciousness and then kill that part of the industry. Once that is gone move on to the next bit. We need to reverse the trend, and we need to risk polarizing a subset of people to do it. In many way this really is a "if you are not for us you are against us" situation, and we need to bring that reality to light too.

Of all the theories I've heard. That's certainly one of them. I'm a little worried that the "subset of people" we risk polarizing, might be bigger than we hoped.

Edit to add: I have always been fairly cynical.

 

[Flopsweat]

I agree. I guess what scares me the most is, my mom grew up in a different era that wasn't nearly as soft as what the young people today are experiencing with their "safe spaces" and "social justice warriors", etc. If she's scared, they'll be even more scared. She's a very good shot too.

The softer the person, the stronger the need for a firearm.

 

[Bobbygun]

The softer the person, the stronger the need for a firearm.

Or the stronger the need for them to make sure nobody has one?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Mass civil "disobedience"?

Turn all the braced firearms into proper SBRs/SBS, no registration, no complying. Drill that 3rd hole. 3d print that Switch. Chop stocks off old semiautomatic rifles. Chop their barrels shorter. They ain't got enough agents and officers to go after everyone, eh? They're already busy with the proliferation of cheap Glock Switches in gang members hands everywhere...

What happens then? What can they do?

Would a large enough number of gun owners have the cojones to do so? Probably not, most seem to be of "just leave me alone" mindset

 

[Member 53328]

Mass civil "disobedience"?

Turn all the braced firearms into proper SBRs/SBS, no registration, no complying. Drill that 3rd hole. 3d print that Switch. Chop stocks off old semiautomatic rifles. Chop their barrels shorter. They ain't got enough agents and officers to go after everyone, eh? They're already busy with the proliferation of cheap Glock Switches in gang members hands everywhere...

What happens then? What can they do?

Would a large enough number of gun owners have the cojones to do so? Probably not, most seem to be of "just leave me alone" mindset

Nope. That's why they invented the brace and bump stocks and more inventions will follow.

People want to stay free and will continue to play cat and mouse within the perimeters of the law to avoid jail time.

 

[Flopsweat]

Or the stronger the need for them to make sure nobody has one?

Both. But we can show that our way is practical. And yes, I know that some will never see that.

 

[lucusloc]

Of all the theories I've heard. That's certainly one of them. I'm a little worried that the "subset of people" we risk polarizing, might be bigger than we hoped.

So we let them drive us to extinction by bureaucratic fiat, oblivious to the violations of the rule of law they are foisting on us? There are only two real ways we win this battle; we convert people to our philosophical side, or we out breed them and raise our own to outnumber theirs. This is a historical fact and a logical truism. Given our collective birthrates I am not sure option 2 is viable.

 

[DirectDrive]

So is the Fishin' Trip still on, or no ?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Nope. That's why they invented the brace and bump stocks and more inventions will follow.

Sad but true

People want to stay free and will continue to play cat and mouse within the perimeters of the law to avoid jail time.

Soap box isn't working, when media is largely beholden to donors and agenda driven money

Ballot box isn't working, when there's doubts about truthfulness of counts and massive amount of apathy and tribalism

Jury box, may not end in our favor because of delaying tactics and because there are only two Justices that are likely on our side, the rest being squishy

Cartridge box- so far unopened because there ain't a strong enough will in enough numbers to matter.

 

[Bobbygun]

So we let them drive us to extinction by bureaucratic fiat, oblivious to the violations of the rule of law they are foisting on us? There are only two real ways we win this battle; we convert people to our philosophical side, or we out breed them and raise our own to outnumber theirs. This is a historical fact and a logical truism. Given our collective birthrates I am not sure option 2 is viable.

I guess I'm not convinced we will ever convert people to our philosophical side, outside some sort of catastrophic event. Until such happens, I think we will continue our inexorable march toward the gun controllers' dream. Ramping up the fear factor at this time, may just result in hastening that result. I think our chances are better playing the long game and waiting for a better time when the odds might be more in our favor. I realize, that time may never come.