Bellevue, WA - Confrontation over mask policy: Customer pulls gun on Bellevue gas station employee

[WillametteWill]

If he had manhandled me like that, I would not pull a gun, but I would beat the sh_it out of him then have him charged with felony assault (truthfully, he probably would not have done that to a guy).

Wrong, he started it, hence felony assault... and if you feel that way about things perhaps you should just give up on ever sticking up for yourself...
Never bow down to Stasi scum and do not advocate for other to do so, remember that's what they want... total and utter fear and obedience and the store clerk with his behavior is adhering to and is complicit with the wishes of our would-be tyrants...

Let me start by saying I hate masks, always have (have asthma so it really sucks), rarely wear them, like @CRBMoA I'll read the room and about 20% of the time I'll wear one. But if any employee would ever ask me to put one on, I would without issue. It's their private property and I'll respect anything beyond the obligatory Brown-don't-shut-me-down sign on the door. It's taken me two years to get covid...have it now. It's my turn.

Once you are on someone's private property, it's no longer about government compliance. There are plenty of stores that clearly don't require masks (I know because I shop at these whenever possible). She refused his lawful order to leave the property. She is now committing a crime. So just to confirm your consistency, if an unhoused individual wanders into your house, plops down on the couch and starts watching Little House on the Prairie, you would agree no force could be used to remove him, correct? They are committing the same crime, trespassing. (He is not a burglar, no intent to commit theft or other crime as I have described.)

As the police described on the video, he used reasonable force to remove the criminal from his (likely as an agent) establishment. (This would be the correct answer for the guy on the couch as well, reasonable force.) He did not start it as you state, she did by committing a crime. I hate masks, hate government overreach even more. But our society needs individual property rights to function the way it was designed. She is free to spend $.25 / gallon more at Shell next time and see how it goes for her there.

 

[clanhanson]

Those supporting the brandishing of a deadly weapon over being told to wear cloth over their face for a few minutes are quite entertaining. Shop elsewhere. We all hate masks, especially healthcare professionals who wear them daily and don't complain.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Play with the attendant get the mugshot!

 

[RobMa]

Let me start by saying I hate masks, always have (have asthma so it really sucks), rarely wear them, like @CRBMoA I'll read the room and about 20% of the time I'll wear one. But if any employee would ever ask me to put one on, I would without issue. It's their private property and I'll respect anything beyond the obligatory Brown-don't-shut-me-down sign on the door. It's taken me two years to get covid...have it now. It's my turn.

Once you are on someone's private property, it's no longer about government compliance. There are plenty of stores that clearly don't require masks (I know because I shop at these whenever possible). She refused his lawful order to leave the property. She is now committing a crime. So just to confirm your consistency, if an unhoused individual wanders into your house, plops down on the couch and starts watching Little House on the Prairie, you would agree no force could be used to remove him, correct? They are committing the same crime, trespassing. (He is not a burglar, no intent to commit theft or other crime as I have described.)

As the police described on the video, he used reasonable force to remove the criminal from his (likely as an agent) establishment. (This would be the correct answer for the guy on the couch as well, reasonable force.) He did not start it as you state, she did by committing a crime. I hate masks, hate government overreach even more. But our society needs individual property rights to function the way it was designed. She is free to spend $.25 / gallon more at Shell next time and see how it goes for her there.

1. "She refused his lawful order to leave the property" and 2. "So just to confirm your consistency, if an unhoused individual wanders into your house, plops down on the couch and starts watching Little House on the Prairie"

1. Lawful? since when do individual people become the purveyors of "their laws" outside the construct of actual criminal law? they do not and arguing this gives credence to the idea that they do, which in itself is advocation for giving property owners the right to arbitrarily assault people for not obeying them.
2. Comparing someone committing a felony and breaking into someone's house with someone coming into a store unmasked is sheer folly and does nothing but downgrade the significance of felony B&E...
We all know the police are going to side with anyone else other than a person with an "evil" gun, so the officer's statement was not surprising and quite frankly expected.

 

[RobMa]

Those supporting the brandishing of a deadly weapon over being told to wear cloth over their face for a few minutes are quite entertaining. Shop elsewhere. We all hate masks, especially healthcare professionals who wear them daily and don't complain.

I do not support brandishing of course, but I revile the wanton willingness of some to become a shill of the new fascists in our country.

 

[clanhanson]

I do not support brandishing of course, but I revile the wanton willingness of some to become a shill of the new fascist in our country.

I haven't had to wear a mask in months after I received my 5g tracker booster. And people wearing a mask in their car, alone, are another source of enjoyment in my life.

 

[RobMa]

I haven't had to wear a mask in months after I received my 5g tracker booster. And people wearing a mask in their car, alone, are another source of enjoyment in my life.

That is something else that disturbs me to no end, the constant abolishment of our privacy. I used to cringe watching any star trek episodes, especially when they would go to the computer and figure out anything and everything about anyone. I find that to be utterly terrifying...

 

[clanhanson]

That is something else that disturbs me to no end, the constant abolishment of our privacy. I used to cringe watching any star trek episodes, especially when they would go to the computer and figure out anything and everything about anyone. I find that to be utterly terrifying...

Now I'm not one to believe in the impossibility/improbability of that technology being used to track us through a convoluted vaccine plot, but the plethora of recording devices in day to day life is disturbing. My neighbor undoubtedly witnessed me dancing with my cat while wearing Hello Kitty briefs through my wide-open, ground level, perfectly clean living room picture window.

Edit: thanks Ring doorbell. Now I can't dance with my cat in perfectly normal, manly, and comfortable Hello Kitty briefs.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

In the two and a half minutes the clerk took arguing with her, he could have printed a receipt and sent her on her way.

She should have Pepper Sprayed him instead.

 

[RobMa]

In the two and a half minutes the clerk took arguing with her, he could have printed a receipt and sent her on her way.

She should have Pepper Sprayed him instead.

Thats my point, he wanted to bully the woman into becoming as "obedient" as he was, she did not so he lashed out in anger and violence.
Pulling the firearm was wrong but I would be more afraid of what the store clerk represented in regard to becoming violent because she did not obey him, and the overall effect it will have on our society if things get worse...

 

[Capn Jack]

I just tell them, masks make my glasses fog up and I can't see to shoot straight.

 

[arrowshooter]

Meh. He should have called the cops and waited, but..... She should not have pulled since the threat was already back behind a closed door. I would hate to think that she represents a portion of all the new gun owners.

 

[RobMa]

Meh. He should have called the cops and waited, but..... She should not have pulled since the threat was already back behind a closed door. I would hate to think that she represents a portion of all the new gun owners.

OK, I think this is probably the best comment in this thread.

 

[Alexx1401]

OK, I think this is probably the best comment in this thread.

Yes. Clerk if he wanted to dig in should have just called 911. Stop arguing with the woman, tell her when Police get there she can argue with them. Police would have showed up some time. If she waited they would tell her it is the law here and she would be told to leave or face arrest.
The clerk lost his temper and he got away with it this time. He needs to be careful though. Acting like this will NOT always end up with him being supported by law. The woman is in for a HUGE legal hassle now that she decided to pull that gun after the clerk let go of her and was trying to close the door. Going to be a painful lesson for her.

 

[bbbass]

Did a short internet search...

As usual the question of whether physical force can be used to eject a trespasser returns lots of conflicting info. Most say:

1. Notice of trespass must be given
2. The popo must be called
3. No physical force is legal when in a place of biz.
4. Popo can then remove the person using "reasonable force"

5. In the best case return, Calif law allows anybody to use "reasonable force"

6. "Reasonable force" = the amount of force a "reasonable person" would use as appropriate to the situation.

IDK what WA or OR laws say.

Sigh, it would be so much easier just to be rid of all these mandates!!!

 

[User 1234]

Now the gun control proponents will send this story to the fence sitting politicians and demand that they vote for the pending gun control bills.

 

[Knobgoblin]

My friends, you're giving way too much credit/expecting way too much from a night clerk at AmPm.

Dude might have been having a bad day. He might hate women. He might hate EVERYONE. My opinion is that he definitely overreacted to the females not leaving the premises . Her pulling a gun after being ejected from the building seems very emotional, and unnecessary. Not only was it pointless, it also trashed her chances of going after a national chain legally for monetary compensation. I see 2 children acting childish.

 

[2gr8dgs]

When A-holes collide...

 

[WillametteWill]

Comparing someone committing a felony and breaking into someone's house with someone coming into a store unmasked is sheer folly and does nothing but downgrade the significance of felony B&E...

I carefully detailed our homeless couch surfer as to not have committed a felony. If someone walks into an unlocked house without other intent (other than to watch your cable), this is simple trespassing in most jurisdictions. This happens with drunk neighbors, kids and plenty of others all the time (not the Little House part, but to sleep off a bender). No forceable entry or other elements. These are important to understand, especially those of us who carry. To me property rights are an extension of our personal rights. When I was an LEO, I always tried my best to respect this with folks.

What Karen of the AM/PM failed to understand, as the officer on the video described, was that the property owner / agent had a right to physically throw her out. As a gun carrier she (incorrectly) though he was assaulting her and introduced a gun to a non-deadly force justified event. This is a great conversation and learning opportunity for us (myself included, love hearing other perspectives).

Back to couch dude for a moment, not saying if I forget to lock my door tonight and I wake up to the sound of Doritos being chomped on sofa by someone I don't know that I'm going to offer the ranch dip to him. But more often than not, details matter in justifying self defense. Besides, my dogs will take care of him after they nosh on his Doritos.

 

[BAJ475]

Let me start by saying I hate masks, always have (have asthma so it really sucks), rarely wear them, like @CRBMoA I'll read the room and about 20% of the time I'll wear one. But if any employee would ever ask me to put one on, I would without issue. It's their private property and I'll respect anything beyond the obligatory Brown-don't-shut-me-down sign on the door. It's taken me two years to get covid...have it now. It's my turn.

Once you are on someone's private property, it's no longer about government compliance. There are plenty of stores that clearly don't require masks (I know because I shop at these whenever possible). She refused his lawful order to leave the property. She is now committing a crime. So just to confirm your consistency, if an unhoused individual wanders into your house, plops down on the couch and starts watching Little House on the Prairie, you would agree no force could be used to remove him, correct? They are committing the same crime, trespassing. (He is not a burglar, no intent to commit theft or other crime as I have described.)

As the police described on the video, he used reasonable force to remove the criminal from his (likely as an agent) establishment. (This would be the correct answer for the guy on the couch as well, reasonable force.) He did not start it as you state, she did by committing a crime. I hate masks, hate government overreach even more. But our society needs individual property rights to function the way it was designed. She is free to spend $.25 / gallon more at Shell next time and see how it goes for her there.

First, let me say that I hope you do well on recovering from Covid.

Let me say that I disagree with some of your assertions. With respect to your assertion that she refused his lawful order to leave the property, you need to recognize that she was a business invitee, so was lawfully present. She had paid for the fuel and was entitled to the receipt she requested. In my view she had the right to remain there until the clerk gave her the receipt that she was entitled to and he did not have the right to eject her until he provided the requested receipt, which was part of the bargain. Thus, IMHO she is/was not a trespasser, as you assert.

No, I do not agree that I could not use force to remove an unhoused individual who wanders into my house, plops down on the couch and starts watching Little House on the Prairie. First, the person you describe would not be an invitee that had any right to be there in the first place. In addition, a person has the right to use reasonable force to protect property, just not lethal force other than in Texas. More importantly, what you described is burglary. First the entry was without consent and therefore unlawful. So the first element of burglary is established. Next is the intent to commit a crime once inside. What you are missing is that under your scenario there is the intent to commit larceny which would be the theft of the electric energy it takes to run the television or other device used to watch Little House on the Prairie. So we have an unlawful entry with the intent to commit larceny. The classic case of residential burglary.

To me, the clerk started it by refusing to provide her with the receipt she was entitled to. It would be different if the clerk had said that she would have to wait outside or put on a mask, indicating an intent to provide the requested receipt. But that is not what I saw. Without indicating any intent to provide the receipt, he attacks her. Because it seems clear that the receipt had significant value, how is his conduct not robbery? The depriving another of their property by force or threat of force.

With respect to drawing her pistol, I have two questions. How would she know, at the instant she drew her pistol, that the clerk would not return to continue his attack? Who among you would not draw your weapon after having just been robbed?