International At least nine U.S. citizens, including six children, Mexican state of Sonora, were killed in a shooting attack Monday

[Hueco]

As I alluded to in my response, this is complex. I am by no means qualified to come up with a so called "legitimate alternative", but I suspect you are poking at me because I critiqued an idea and offered none of my own. Based on my knowledge, one big step toward removing the incentive for the cartels to operate in Mexico would be to remove the demand for drugs in the U.S. For a long time weed supplied to the U.S. has been the biggest source of income for the cartels. If you remove the need for weed grown somewhere else then that would seem to at least somewhat reduce the demand. We have plenty places to grow it here, we should do that, and then tax the hell out of it, and use the money for something good. That has obviously already begun, and may work for weed, but i'm not advocating for the legalization of heroin, meth, or cocaine, which the cartels also supply to the U.S., so I guess get people to stop using those? I'm not really sure how you do that. Americans do what they want and the war on drugs has succeeded in nothing but filling up prisons.

Legalize everything and let God sort it out?

What's your solution?

Due to the way weed has been legalized, there is still a healthy incentive to operate illicitly:
- One year of legal pot sales and California doesn't have the bustling industry it expected. Here's why
- How Legal Weed Is Killing America's Most Famous Marijuana Farmers
- Legalizing marijuana was supposed to slow illegal activity in California. It hasn't

That being said, weed isn't the cartel cash crop anymore. (https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/DIR-032-18 2018 NDTA final low resolution.pdf)

Don't get me wrong, they still ship a staggering amount of weed (they're the number 1 supplier to the US of foreign grown).

But they also produce heroin, methamphetamine, fentanyl, and transport cocaine.

It is not clear from the data that legalizing the production and sale of marijuana has had any significant disruption to illicit operations. It cannot, therefor, be concluded that legalizing the harder drugs would have any impact to the cartel's operations.

Screwing around with who the supplier is of a product has little effect on the pent up demand for said product. These are addictive drugs, not crayons. They behave much more like inelastic goods. Remember when gas prices were spiking around 2008? This spike had virtually no effect on demand. Drugs behave similarly. Change the price, change the supplier...the demand will not simply go down because of these things and may actually cause a new market to open up, that a cartel could then take advantage of, like a new designer drug.

I think that the only way that we can curb demand is to help break the vicious cycle of addiction. Most people addicted to substances remain functioning because they need to - either to support themselves and/or a family. Can they simply take 30 to 90 days away from their jobs to go to rehab? Hardly. So we reserve rehab for only the wealthy or the broken and expect the working poor to simply carry on or figure it out themselves.

Add to that the fact that being caught with any of these substances means a felony conviction, loss of current and any future possibility of being "gainfully employed," loss of rights like the right to a firearm or the right to vote...and you can see why people would struggle to find and get help.

I don't believe in most government handouts - but where addiction is concerned, we should help those trying to help themselves. A person should be allowed to go to rehab and know that their job is safe, same as if they went out on maternal/paternal leave. Non-violent drug offenses should be expunged after a time of probation. That'd be a start, anyway.

If by "asserting ourselves" into Mexico you mean sending tens of thousands of troops, then yes that is what it would take, a full invasion of a sovereign nation. I think this would look something like the war in Afghanistan. How would you tell members of the drug cartels from innocent Mexican citizens? Not sure you really thought this one through. While in theory, a safer Mexico, free of drug cartels would make a lot of people feel better, this is not an easy task. Wiping out the cartels via maximum force also does nothing to deal with the reasons why the cartels are there to begin with. Finally, while we have our focus on this next "endless war" China, already our biggest threat, continues to hum along and become and even bigger problem for us to deal with in the future, a problem that will make the cartels look like a band of angry shop lifters.

The difference between the cartels and the Middle East is that the cartels are not fighting for their homes or ideology; they're fighting for their lucrative lifestyle and because of fear...fear that if they don't fight, they or their family may end up on the wrong side of the cartel.

We know where their facilities are, to some degree, and without crops or manufacturing, their business is dead. Do you think that the remaining cartel will huddle around the crispy fields, the roofless buildings, and stand their ground and fight? No, once those things are gone they'll be trying to rebuild in secret. And every time we stomp out their operation, they get a little smaller...until they're no bigger than current crop of rednecks in the South making meth.

We can crush the cartel infrastructure and leadership through air superiority alone. However, in order to make amends with Mexico, we would need to help the country repair and build up, not unlike our involvement in Japan post WW2. But for this to occur, we need either the Mexican government or people to partner with us. And for that to occur...well, I don't know how we could cause that mindset to change.

 

[Hop Sing]

I found a totally interesting take on this from another web site. Don't yell at me - I am just passing this along. Here we go...

"Since this story first came out something just didn't sit right with me.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lebaron...-drug-cartels/

As horrific as it is to see young children like that being hurt I think there's more to the story than we're led to believe. Something smells funny and I bet a lot more stuff is going to be revealed as time passes about this incident."

When I asked him for more info he wrote:

"The family has ties to Queen Creek (edit by me: his home town). I have seen some of these Mormons do shady bubblegum bubblegum with a smile on their face. I'm not claiming to have any inside intel on this. Just a gut feeling. This doesn't seem like a cartel hit.

The first that came out of the story was that they were on their way to a wedding. Then they said it happened at 3am. Then the cell phone video of the grandfather comes out where he starts with the phrase "for the record..." which just seems so completely out of place if something like that has just happened to your family.

then this morning there were two stories. One that they were just caught in the crossfire of two gangs. The other that they were targeted. As horrible as we would like to make drug cartels out to be, I know for a fact that attacks like this on young children is not normal. It isn't out of the realm, just not normal."

I have no dog in this fight - just passing along that things may not be as simple as they appear to be.

 

[Legion489]

From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli... The US is the only country in the world that invades a country, gets rid of the problem, and then gives it back, like Mexico and France. France is a beautiful, country but full of French people, if we had gotten rid of the French, we should have kept it after WW II.

Maybe we need to send in the Marines again and make the place safe like we did in the Philippines, not that that lasted long either. Only this time we keep it. Have to admit the whole story sounds fishy however, just too many things don't add up and this is not how the cartels normally do things, although just what "normal" is to these people is up for grabs too. I know some people who regularly travel all over Mexico and this doesn't sound just quite above board.

 

[Oohrah]

No stronger gun control laws than a country that guns are not allowed. Yet this country has one of the highest death by firearms rates...works as well as Chicago proving that any firearms control is bound to do just the opposite of what it is claimed! Gun laws increase deaths by firearms!

 

[Member 52301]

I find it odd that certain refugees are allowed 4 wives but Mormons can't do that...

THIS post needs to be framed and put on the national news!

Good one and thank you.

Cate

 

[Member 52301]

^^^ Yup. Couple up with getting rid of Narcan so that all the stupid people die out quickly.

I used to call some of these people not only stupid but well never mind now. LOL This is a family forum.

Some people might NOT like what I am going to write but here goes - I have said this since I got online and said it before I ever got online too!

If a drug addict (Legal Rx drug or illegal drugs ADDICTION.) overdoses on ANY type of drug and he is proven to be a HARD CORE ADDICT - he does not get SAVED by any medical procedure or method. LET him or her die since he CHOSE that lifestyle and did NOT want to get OUT of it.

I used to say that the drunks and dope fiends who RUIN their lives and other lives while they SUCK on the teat of the Nanny State with Uncle Sugar's FREE money that the poor Taxpaying slobs are Paying for should be put in a camp away from society. (Like a jail only bare bones.)

Let them DO THEIR THING and DIE in the life that they chose!

Don't try to SAVE them with jack! NONE of this SJW and pity party freak - victim for LIFE BS TALK or actions!

If they want to have religious or non religious people come in for FREE talks or prayers... the drunks/addicts aka CAMPERS CAN PARTICIPATE or NOT!

They get to LIVE their lifestyle and we don't have their dung, urine, needles, vomit, trash, pig tents, and violent, threatening, public health hazard behavior SHOWN to a SANE and sober society!

We don't continue to have ALL types of crimes committed over and over again by the same criminal dirt bag with a RAP SHEET 25 feet long!

Why should ANY taxpayer pay for continued REHAB OVER and OVER AGAIN whether the drunk or dope fiend gets part of it paid or ALL OF IT PAID by tax dollar money?!

And if the patient (LOL) has medical insurance = our PREMIUMS GO UP all of the time because more claims are being paid out over and over again for these bottom feeders who continue to screw up their lives!

NO more leeches! Stop the insanity.

I go back and forth when it comes to a pharmacy where regular people buy these so called illegal drugs that just became legal drugs.

I do believe that ONE DRUG is a gateway to more and stronger drugs or dope and it may get worse. LOOK at it now.

But if they have those camps set up and people choose that LIFESTYLE - they can give them their crap load of drugs by some type of a doctor or a LESS EXPENSIVE EMPLOYEE and when they OVERDOSE - let them DIE.

The drugs can be brought in from those drug busts so we hand them out. Large amounts so when they want to DO THEIR HIPPIE DIPPY THING - let them go out with a bang but with NO firearms allowed. They will have tents to live in just like the FREAK CITIES ALLOW. They will feel right at home ONLY they will not be messing up your home or business or public sidewalks/streets. These camps will be in out of the way places and NOT WITHIN city/county limits and a desert sounds kind of nice to me.

^^^
ADDED MORE.

I have another idea and I may post it here.

Cate

 

[308]

I remember the news reports on those Rajneesh followers did they leave Oregon after ? Or did they add to the Dem population here ?

There were some followers that made up an offshoot group that created a bio terrorism scare poisoning salad bars.

The Rajneesh Hotel in Portland was reportedly bombed around that time too.

Isn't that around the same time when the US was friendly with the Afghans and trying to rid them of the Soviets?

The more I think about why the cartels rose to power the more I think about what the natural progression of drug dealers and criminals are to become attorneys and real estate brokers. Stalin for example use to rob banks.

Netflix has a really good mini-series documentary on the Rajneeshis. I would highly recommend it

 

[308]

According to this article, may have been over water rights.

Suspect Arrested in Slaughter of Mormon Family Near Mexico Border | National Review

Three women and six children were gunned down by suspected drug cartel members on Tuesday in the state of Chihuahua.

www.nationalreview.com

I hate to keep quoting Netflix, but there is a documentary about this as well...I think it is called Rotten and they talk about the cartels taking over the Avocado production and water rights are a BIG part of that.

 

[CRBMoA]

There were some followers that made up an offshoot group that created a bio terrorism scare poisoning salad bars.

The Rajneesh encampment had full blown clandestine bioterrorism (don't think we called it that back then) research lab.

Not exactly an offshoot group.

 

[bbbass]

The Rajneesh encampment had full blown clandestine bioterrorism (don't think we called it that back then) research lab.

Not exactly an offshoot group.

Yah, they were under the direct orders of Ma Sheela, the evil witch. She did have a core group of people separate from the rest but not sure that would be termed an offshoot.

 

[RVTECH]

The Rajneesh encampment had full blown clandestine bioterrorism (don't think we called it that back then) research lab.

Not exactly an offshoot group.

Yep - this was at the crescendo of their operation.
They had a pretty sophisticated lab at 'Rancho Rajneesh' to germinate Salmonella which they ultimately used to poison 750+ people in The Dalles.
Lots of interesting info on the 'net about this (and the entire operation in general) should anyone be interested in the details.

 

[Pandaz3]

For certain we don't know much about what is real and what is not, except that it was women and children, and no men

 

[guntinker]

Heard some of the kids survived this gruesome and inhuman

 

[EPS]

 

[Mikej]

I find it odd that certain refugees are allowed 4 wives but Mormons can't do that...

These Mormon of-shoot sects tend to trade their daughters off to much older men when they are old enough to menstruate. They need to increase the numbers of their group of course. That pretty little blonde holding the twins in the video could be 13-14 years old. I got nothin' against multiple wives as long all parties are fully cognizant of the situation and agree with it. When you're born into a lot of those groups you're brain washed to believe some creepy arsed stuff. You grow up believing it's a normal thing to be treated and bred like live stock.

'It's a revolution': polygamist sect loses power over Utah town for first time

Majority control on the town council of Hildale is now set to transfer away from the sect, and a new female mayor is expected to win once ballots are counted

www.theguardian.com

As a polygamist community crumbles, 'sister wives' are forced from homes

With the outside world descending on fundamentalist Mormons in Utah and Arizona, families struggle for basic needs: ‘Everything just shut down’

www.theguardian.com

The FLDS next door

The sight of members of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints are becoming more common throughout southern Utah, but that doesn't mean they're blending in.

www.thespectrum.com

At Rockland Ranch, polygamists gather to be among people like themselves

<b>Moab •</b> On a Saturday in July, the sun shined on the redrock cliffs of southeastern Utah, and Heidi Foster sat on the banks of the Colorado River. She handed out fruit snacks to kids from polygamous families.

www.sltrib.com

 

[EPS]

I remember the news reports on those Rajneesh followers did they leave Oregon after ? Or did they add to the Dem population here ?

There were some followers that made up an offshoot group that created a bio terrorism scare poisoning salad bars.

The Rajneesh Hotel in Portland was reportedly bombed around that time too.

Isn't that around the same time when the US was friendly with the Afghans and trying to rid them of the Soviets?

The more I think about why the cartels rose to power the more I think about what the natural progression of drug dealers and criminals are to become attorneys and real estate brokers. Stalin for example use to rob banks.

Actually some moved up here to WA .
There is a documentary film about them.
I saw it last year.
The main lawyer from the cult lives in PORT Angeles .

 

[EPS]

 

[Mikej]

I have relatives that are Mormon and it just like any other religion, you'll have groups within the whole, who's interpretation of the laws are different. Some more so than others, it's better to just look at people for what they are and not their religious beliefs.

I was born in '55 12 miles South of the world headquarters of the Mormon Church and lived there abouts until I moved here at the age of 27. Dad was full on atheist and mom was a, non-practicing for the most part, member. I went to church functions as a youngster because ALL my friends were members of the church. They whispered behind your back if you weren't a member. Suggested to their kids that you may not be a person they should play with. Not all mind you. The whole idea was to get you to join, so a good portion of the interaction would be to help you along to see what a great deal being a member was.

Mormons are baptized automatically at eight. When I was twelve, two pretty girl, high school aged missionary's knocked on our door. To make it short, I joined and took the dunk. That lasted for about three years. I just never bought into it. Skip forward to, maybe, 1990? Ward Teachers came knocking on the door. I was in the shower and wife to be didn't really want them there waiting for me to get done and said they couldn't come in and wait. A couple of weeks later I got the letter from the bishop tell me he was calling me before a Bishops Quorum so's I could defend myself on charges of "Living with a woman without being married". I could have brought someone speak on my behalf. But they would need to be approved by the Bishopric. I called him up and told him to kiss my butt. He excommunicated me.

I know about Mormons. And lost most of the respect I had for them at that time. As far as these nutter mormons living in the desert? They are sicko's in my book.

 

[Ura-Ki]

What I find interesting is that Trump offered support but the Mexican president declined saying "we don't need a war"

If that's not a sign of corruption if anyone needs one. Mexico is already at war with the cartels and by talking to guys born and raised in Mexico here at work, they see things exactly as they are. The corruption is deep from top to bottom and a lot of hands are greased in the process or they die.

Declining any assistance with a problem inside of your own country that you are unable and unwilling to tackle is insanity.

I'm not a fan of sending our troops anywhere to quell an internal problem but the outlet for the drug money is the united states...

Close the border. Dry up the money. The castrate.

Lets get one immutable fact strait and clear, mexico by definition is a Failed State! Once we accept that and move forward, we can then work to change things!
If a countries Military cannot defend its citizens, it has failed! If the Military and Police are deeply corrupted, they are failed! If the people cannot protect themselves, they are failed! If they refuse to act to stop illicit activities across the border with other sovereign nations, they are failed!

Time has come for actions, and the sooner we take action, the better for all!
1) gather intel across the border, LARP teams spread out and transmitting.
2) drone ops to further gather intel, speciffically target data for later use.
3) covert "Sicario" ops into the strongholds speciffically targeting known/identified leaders and potential leaders.
4) distruction of all drug trade equipement and crops.
5) target all weapons.
6) remove the power base and install new leadership under transition.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Another serious move to get Mexico to play ball:
Close the border both ways, no shippments of foodstuffs, or any other products north, no tourists south, no migrants north, no aid south! Lock the damn border down tight, post armed National Guard troups with Rifles on the damn border and stop all movent, fail to stop and the the bodies start to pile up and rot!
Turn it into a feast for crows says me!