12/14/2012 Another Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut

[DuneHopper]

Something I haven't heard about is these were all legally owned firearms by the mother, why weren't they locked either with some kind of safe or trigger lock all this could have been avoided with simple precautions. In my view the mother was partly responsible for what happened.

I agree, I preach this all the time , gun safety, gun safety , gun safety........ You can not undue carelessness when it comes to fire arms. Yet in this forum sometime it is like pulling teeth to convince anyone gun training should be a required part of being a gun owner not optional. But hey we can just let more people die from the lack of training and knowing how to store firearms. After all we just need to add more fuel to the fire for the anti-gun nuts to say we told you so!

 

[DuneHopper]

Are other forces behind these shootings? Just posting possibilities.

Just watched it pretty interesting for sure.

 

[USAF Medic]

The only weapon used was an AR-15 with 223 ammo. At least one 6 year old child was hit 11 times. All were hit more than once.
Another AR was found in his car. He also had two glock sidearms. But, those were not fired.

I'm beginning to think that all semi-auto firearms should be classified the same as full auto. Our lack of morals as a society has to be
addressed. There are of course responsible gun owners, but there are also evil persons amongst us.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

The only weapon used was an AR-15 with 223 ammo. At least one 6 year old child was hit 11 times. All were hit more than once.
Another AR was found in his car. He also had two glock sidearms. But, those were not fired.

Where are you getting this information?

'Shock' in Connecticut that 'nice kid' could be responsible for such horror - CNN.com

He was found dead in a classroom with two firearms, a Glock and Sig Sauer. Another gun, a .223 Bushmaster, was found nearby in a car.

Connecticut school victims were shot multiple times, medical examiner says - CNN.com

Lanza was found dead next to three guns, a semi-automatic .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle and two pistols made by Glock and Sig Sauer, a law enforcement source told CNN.

CNN seems to be confused, but you just seem to be making stuff up.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

This is my reply in another venue to a friend who called for outlawing semi-automatic weapons in response to the recent shootings:

Caroline, of the 8 children per day, how many of those are gang related, and classified as children only because they were under 18? The statistics on both sides of the argument have been distorted to show support for whatever the presenter's position is. We can cite statistics all day long and get nowhere.

My fear is that we will rush to do something, anything, as long as we can feel better about the situation. We do this all the time. We pass laws that we know won't work, but at least we can say we tried, so we can sleep at night. But it doesn't help. In fact, it only makes things worse because we direct our attention and our resources away from real solutions. We do that because real solutions are too complex, too difficult, and take too long to implement.

Yes, we will probably outlaw "assault" weapons, meaning not real assault weapons, but semi-automatic rifles that cosmetically look fearsome. I know, you've been told that hese are "high powered rifles", but in fact they are designed to use the .223 caliber rifle cartridge, which is almost the smallest and weakest centerfire rifle cartridge available. We might even outlaw high capacity magazines that allow 20 or 30 shots without reloading. Will these accomplish anything at all? No. The weapons in question are used in something like .01% of crimes. Neither of the most recent shooters acquired their weapons legally. Would a ban on the ownership of high capacity magazines have deterred either of them? I suspect not. After all they ignored the laws already on the books about guns in schools and other public places that prohibit them. The ignored the laws against discharging a firearm within city limits. They ignore the laws about murdering people. They, in fact, planned to kill themselves, which is itself already against the law. More laws are the answer, you say?

It is also significant that these shooters and most others specifically chose locations where they knew their victims would be unarmed, so-called gun free zones. In their fevered minds, what they hoped to accomplish is to demonstrate their superiority and their power over ordinary people. They are almost universally depressed and angry. They want to hurt others as they've been hurt. They want to turn the tables. They want to vent their anger on someone, anyone. And final insult will be taking themselves out of the path of retribution, leaving the survivors frustrated and angry, like themselves. These are people with major mental issues. Invariably they are people who come to the attention of those around them as either bizarre or dangerous, or both. IT is our mental health system that is at fault. If you really want to help, call for the establishment of free, publicly operated and funded emergency mental health services, where suspected dangerous people can be removed from society long enough to find out if they really are dangerous. Currently, family members of these people have nowhere to turn, no resources available to them. Typically these dangerous people live at home, with their parents or siblings, or friends, until the day they go off and kill their hosts. These people need help. Keep them away from guns, yes, but also take them off the streets.

One if the graphs in your link shows a parabolic curve of rising then slightly diminishing gun violence in America, while other countries are shown as not increasing. The really important part of that curve is the dramatic rise in violence starting in about 1965. Coincidentally, or maybe not so coincidentally, that's about the time we started dismantling our long established state run mental health systems. They were "too wasteful", "too expensive", "too oppressive", and sometimes they made mistakes. What we have now is the price we pay for that false economy. Let's not, in our haste make ourselves feel better, do the wrong thing.

 

[Lush]

live on fox news right now the lady said it was the AR that was used..

 

[coyoteman5]

A gun a knife or a rock or spear are harmless in themselves it is the human factor that makes them deadly. Yes there are good and evil people in this world and it's the evil people that need to be controlled Easier said than done. You can create all the gun laws you want bunching in semiauto in with full auto You might as well throw in the Lever action or the pump rifle you can throw a lot of rounds with one of them. Some how the Human factor is what needs to be controlled And taking away or controlling the guns rights of the people who Check out to be good or mentally Stable you're just taking away their rights to protect themselves and others. And of course one's mental Health can change something in life happens and set them off down a road that sometimes ends up not being good. There is no one definite way to totally stop this type of violence Humans one way or another if so desired will find a way to kill another human.

 

[4Freedom]

Nazi Germany had very few school shootings or mass murders committed by its citizens. However, that excludes the large number of mass murders and shootings committed by the Nazi government themselves against its citizens.

Ban Guns, Ban Cars, Ban Cell Phones.. Ban Sugar.. Ban Bread and Starchy Foods (it makes you fat), Ban Meat (it's high in cholesterol, so they say!). Cell phones and fertilizers can be turned into bombs. A can of gasoline can be turned into a deadly weapon. Ban that..

Wow, how safe we are in a fascist society!

You ban guns in USA?? Guess what.. Mexican/Latin American Mafia, Eastern European/Russian Mafia and all the other criminal elements of the world will make sure that acquiring a firearms is much easier to do than it even is now. Illegal guns are selling like hot cakes now in many countries that have strict bans. Guns will be even bigger money than drugs, as considering how dangerous our society has become today, with well-armed gangs, illegal immigrants/drug mafias, etc, sub-par/overworked law enforcement, I will say that it won't only be "criminals", buying guns, but also law-abiding citzens, or people who were previously law-abiding.

India is a great example of a country with ultra-strict gun laws and yet more and more people are arming themselves with illegal firearms. Strangely enough, gangs, robbers, thieves are only part of the criminal element buying illegal firearms. There is also a great number of store owners, jewelers, housewives, businessmen who are buying the illegal weapons. India is a poor country with not much money. Just imagine a country like the USA, where any 10 year old with a paper out will have money to buy a $400 handgun on the street.

Here's another example of Jolly Ol Gun-Free England.. Yeah, many types of gun are banned.. You need all types of permits and to go through quite a hassle to get a gun. Yet gun crimes are rising and buying a gun in the streets of London is a simple task.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/30/ukcrime1

Who will be empowered? The mafia and illegal weapon dealers. Who will have most of the guns? Criminals who care nothing for the laws. Gangs will have more power and be embolden, as well as the Mexican and Latin American drug cartels and mafia who are slowly taking over parts of the USA. Even the state of ORegon now has a very high presence of heavily armed Mexican drug mafias who have claimed certain areas, such as Rockwood, Gresham, Outer SE Portland, etc. 30 dead from a school shooting will not seem like a spectacular event, no longer.

The last thing I have yet heard of was an outcry for a National School Security legislation. At least for most schools, if every parent would contribute a small amount of money to their school, they could afford full-time armed security guard. They hire crossing guards to protect children, why not security guards? How much money is blown on useless programs in our schools? Let's allocate the school funds to something useful and productive. China now has security guards stationed at most of its schools, because it is aware of danger. How come Americans have become so weak and naive to pretend they don't live in a dangerous world? After 8 children were butchered and 50 others wounded/dismembered in a mass school stabbing, the Chinese government got the point. It appears the Chinese are more sensible in this regard.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The only weapon used was an AR-15 with 223 ammo. At least one 6 year old child was hit 11 times. All were hit more than once.
Another AR was found in his car. He also had two glock sidearms. But, those were not fired.

I'm beginning to think that all semi-auto firearms should be classified the same as full auto. Our lack of morals as a society has to be
addressed. There are of course responsible gun owners, but there are also evil persons amongst us.

Personally I would like to see you stripped of your citizenship and deported to China, Africa or another suitable place. You are the very definition of anti American

The Founders would call you a Tory

 

[Lush]

Personally I would like to see you stripped of your citizenship and deported to China, Africa or another suitable place. You are the very definition of anti American

The Founders would call you a Tory

no need for a personal attack on the man just because he dont fully agree with what u think.

 

[oneharmonic]

The only weapon used was an AR-15 with 223 ammo. At least one 6 year old child was hit 11 times. All were hit more than once.
Another AR was found in his car. He also had two glock sidearms. But, those were not fired.

I'm beginning to think that all semi-auto firearms should be classified the same as full auto. Our lack of morals as a society has to be
addressed. There are of course responsible gun owners, but there are also evil persons amongst us.

Just curious how your solution would have addressed the Virginia Tech massacre, the deadliest in US history, which involved no "assault weapons" and only handguns?

 

[oneharmonic]

Someone wrote an article with a quote attributed to Morgan Freeman relating to the Newtown shooting. Now others are saying Freeman never said these words. Regardless of the source, the words make a lot of sense and are worth reading:

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

 

[4Freedom]

no need for a personal attack on the man just because he dont fully agree with what u think.

This comment is coming from a guy (Lush) who believes all of us people here should be disarmed and lose our freedom to protect ourselves and our loved ones.

Blitzkrieg's rebuke of Ben Lilly was perfectly acceptable to me. Ben Lilly is also advocating for the disarming/banning of firearms of law-abiding citizens, which goes against our Constitution. Just because some whackjob murders children at a school with ZERO security, doesn't mean all the American people should be punished. This is fascist theology. Blame the entire people for the weakness of the few.

 

[Lush]

This comment is coming from a guy (Lush) who believes all of us people here should be disarmed and lose our freedom to protect ourselves and our loved ones.

Blitzkrieg's rebuke of Ben Lilly was perfectly acceptable to me. Ben Lilly is also advocating for the disarming/banning of firearms of law-abiding citizens, which goes against our Constitution. Just because some whackjob murders children at a school with ZERO security, doesn't mean all the American people should be punished. This is fascist theology. Blame the entire people for the weakness of the few.

i dont think we should be disarmed. i never once said that law-abiding citizens like you and myself should be disarmed. but i think there should be a better way to keep guns out of the hands of people who use them not to defend but as a means of killing others just because its the most easy way to do it.

 

[Burt Gummer]

The names and birth dates of the victims:

Charlotte Bacon (2/22/06), 6 years old, female

Daniel Barden (9/25/05), 7 years old, male

Rachel Davino (7/17/83), Staff member, 29 years old, female

Olivia Engel (7/18/06), 6 years old, female

Josephine Gay (12/11/05), 7 years old, female

Ana M. Marquez-Greene (4/4/06), 6 years old, female

Dylan Hockley (3/8/06), 6 years old, male

Dawn Hochsprung (6/28/65), Principal, 47 years old, female

Madeleine F. Hsu (7/10/06), 6 years old, female

Catherine V. Hubbard (6/8/06), 6 years old, female

Chase Kowalski (10/31/05), 7 years old, male

Nancy Lanza, 52 years old, female (mother of shooter Adam Lanza)

Jesse Lewis (6/30/06), 6 years old, male

James Mattioli (03/22/06), 6 years old, male

Grace McDonnell (11/4/05), 7 years old, female

Anne Marie Murphy (7/25/60), Staff member, 52 years old, female

Emilie Parker (05/12/06), 6 years old, female

Jack Pinto (05/05/06), 6 years old, male

Noah Pozner (11/20/06), 6 years old, male

Caroline Previdi (9/07/06), 6 years old, female

Jessica Rekos (5/10/06), 6 years old, female

Avielle Richman (11/17/06) 6 years old, female

Lauren Rousseau (June 1982), Staff member, 30 years old, female

Mary Sherlach (2/11/56), Staff member, 56 years old, female

Victoria Soto (11/04/85), Staff member, 27 years old, female

Benjamin Wheeler (09/12/06), 6 years old, male

Allison N. Wyatt (07/03/06), 6 years old, female

 

[Burt Gummer]

The only weapon used was an AR-15 with 223 ammo. At least one 6 year old child was hit 11 times. All were hit more than once.
Another AR was found in his car. He also had two glock sidearms. But, those were not fired.

I'm beginning to think that all semi-auto firearms should be classified the same as full auto. Our lack of morals as a society has to be
addressed. There are of course responsible gun owners, but there are also evil persons amongst us.

Sorry Ben, but with respect, I believe your intent is just but your reasoning is flawed. If I thought what you proposed would save one life of a precious child I would be all for it, but it will not.

Remember this weapon was stolen. It wouldn't have mattered if it had an ATF approval and was gold plated. Criminals don't care about laws, period.

 

[Dave Workman]

Sorry Ben, but with respect, I believe your intent is just but your reasoning is flawed. If I thought what you proposed would save one life of a precious child I would be all for it, but it will not.

Remember this weapon was stolen. It wouldn't have mattered if it had an ATF approval and was gold plated. Criminals don't care about laws, period.

Hey, Burt:

All due respect amigo, but we need to get away from this "the gun was stolen" crap right away. The gun belonged to his mother and was in their house. THEIR house, so there is a pretty good argument that he "took" the gun but since he had constructive possession ahead of time, I'm not sure that's theft that we can defend as theft.

He murdered his mother, somehow. Maybe with the rifle, maybe with one of the handguns.

There is a bigger issue here that I am going to pursue 1st thing Monday morning. The cops have been curiously evasive about this and there is no reason for it:
It has been reported repeatedly that two handguns were recovered inside the school and a Bushmaster rifle found in a car outside, and now the ME says the kids were primarily killed with a rifle.

This does not make sense. What did this loon do, walk the rifle out to the car and lock it in the trunk and then stroll back inside the school to kill himself? Nobody is asking about that for clarity.

I have a real problem with claiming this rifle was "stolen." That is simply not going to wash in the debate, and debating and writing about this stuff is how I make my living.

Concentrate on the points we can make that will stick. The firearms were legally purchased and licensed. That did not stop the crime. We win on that point. The crime occurred in a gun-free school zone. We win on that point. Connecticut has some of the toughest gun restrictions of any state and this is where the crime occurred. We win on that point.


But stealing a gun from the home in which he lived? That doesn't even win with me, amigo, and I'm on your side.

 

[carracer]

I saw the Homeland Security guy also state the only weapon used was the bushmaster. Also conflicting himself on the number of weapons found.

Seems to me that it would have been known from the beginning that the Bushmaster was with him. Would have provided the platform the anti's needed from the start. Now it smells, to me, as being manufactured to fit their agenda.

 

[orygun]

Dave, I'd wondered the same thing about what gun was used compared to where the police found the firearms. Seems to me the media just A$$-U-MEs that anytime an AR15 is near the scene, it is what was used. Same goes for the Dr.

Very similar to the quote on the radio of the Dr. that treated the young lady in the Clackamas Town Center shooting. What he said inferred that because she was shot with an assault rifle, her wounds were more serious.

In both instances I'm left wondering, "Really?"

 

[gunfreak]

Why Isreal doesn't have the same problem.

<broken link removed>