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Why do we need to be quiet and in the shadows when no law has been passed so no law is broken are we that afraid of our government that we need to whisper about Hypothetical questions.

That is like not answering a math question that states "if going 70 mph for 1.5 hours on (you pick a road) how many miles did you go" because you know the speed limit on that road is only 55 mph so by answering the question you will be breaking the law.

It is a Hypothetical question!

As a concealed carry holder when entering a room I look it over before being seated and pretend to be a bad guy for a second. I do a "what if in my mind" if I were to rob the place where is the cash register; I look where the entrance and exits are and what cover I may have because this determines where I want to be seated and the direction I face. This could be considered as paranoid or situational awareness or am I a just bad guy because for a split second I thought about how to rob the place even thought I did not and would not.

I personally want folks to know I am willing to fight to protect the constitution I swore an oath to so maybe, just maybe they think twice before they pass stupid laws. I know I am a dreamer.

"What if" or Hypothetical question have helped cure diseases', solve problems and are used in everyday life so answering one should not be an issue.

Now if you start posting a hit list or making personal threats it has left the realm of Hypothetical.
 
I don't think the cautions were made in regard to hypotheticals. The ones that have made me wince a little were declarative sentences.

There have been statements made on forums, including this one- that might, should it become useful to a prosecutor's or FBI office, be included in a set of evidence to 'show' how so-and-so had expressed thoughts of starting or being part of an anti-government uprising (which incidentally is called "insurgency" in countries like Iraq and Bananastan.)

You haven't noticed these kinds of statements? Apparently some folks have, and that's why they cared enough to advise that it's a good idea to be circumspect when bloviating about "there'll be blood in the streets" and blah blah blah I'll shoot 'em if they try to take my guns" blah blah. Internet posturing that seems harmless now can look real bad in court or in a "finding".

This whole "Patriot" Act and anti-"Terrorism" fever cuts both ways, against the actual ISIS lunatics and impulsive people just venting.

And 'maybe they should think twice' is gonna help exactly Richard-squat if somebody's rendered out to some salt mine in Bananastan for 'enhanced interviews'.

Just look at how every time some homegrown loony is arrested, their social media statements are used to "prove" how guilty they are. Under current laws, which I completely disagree with, a trial and conviction are not even necessary. A special agent writes a letter and welcome to The List.

In criminal law we are taught the way you prove what someone was thinking, in order to establish intent, you present what they did. And writing statements is a form of 'what they did.'

A friend will tell you when you're about to step into a hole. Someone who doesn't give a dang will let you step in it. I wouldn't berate the one trying to watch your six.
 
When I post my comments my intention is not to belittle someone or not respect their point of view, so I hope I have not done so.

I do also appreciate folks watching my 6 very much.

So thank you for that.

My hope is to provoke thought about the subject being talked about and give you my point of view. I will admit I am more of a constitutionalist so I do not agree with a lot of what the government pushes but I am not a terrorist and have no intention to over throw the government.

You brought up the "Patriot Act"

This whole "Patriot" Act and anti-"Terrorism" fever cuts both ways, against the actual ISIS lunatics and impulsive people just venting.

Yes it cuts both ways and that was their intention because around the same time they came out with a DHS report saying conservative, prior military personal could become right wing lone wolf extremist.

Most folks do not know this report exist as it was written and only sent to law enforcement but a media outlet got a hold of it and reported it.

It caused the usual BS stink then faded away but it is still being used as a viable document. (So strike one for most gun forums and gun owners as many are prior military and lean right)

It is the same issue as the "NO FLY, NO BUY" yes it sounds good to stop terrorist but if passed it can also take honest folks rights away as well with no real due process. Is it the intention of the government to stop terrorist or possible down the road to use it in combination with the "Patriot Act" to say gun forums and target ranges are hot beds of terrorist (conservative, prior military personal right wing lone wolf extremist) and should be shut down and by the way we are all now on a list and your gun right are gone.

(If passed this could be strike two and three for gun owners down the road depending who gets into office and we let happen.)

We the people are now more afraid of our government than they are of us and in my opinion this is wrong. We are afraid to say what we think or answer hypothetical questions as it might be take wrong. There is a difference between direct threats towards someone and or an agency but we are not sure where that line is so we say nothing.

People ask how so many Jews could be led to their death, well it is easy the government makes you feel like it is for your safety to move you from your home and go to nice safe camp and you believe it. The government would not lie.

There was a lot of hatred towards the Jews at the time so the government actually told them we will move you to safety and the guards where there to protect them from danger and harm. That is why when you look at old video you only see a few guards at the train stations and the people just walking on the trains.

We are becoming those lemmings who believe the fact that their government knows best but I want to know where they are leading us.

I have a personal saying I live by it goes like this "Plan for the worst, hope for the best and if you land on your feet running life is good"

So I run hypothetical questions in my mind all the time and bounce them off a group of folks I shoot with and work with to see if I might not have thought of something. My hope is to just be better prepared for whatever may happen in my life.

I do appreciate you watching all of our 6 because I agree sometimes we rant and things are written that some may read and take in a way that was not intended because we all look at the world differently.

So thank you.
 
We the people are now more afraid of our government than they are of us and in my opinion this is wrong.

I agree. To a large extent they are a paper tiger. They couldn't even get homeschoolers (largely moms) back in the government schools, and the teacher's unions are the most powerful interest groups in every state. 95% of New Yorkers are flouting their "SAFE" law.

I have no problem with the people who want to fly under the radar, especially if they will fight when the time comes.

I also think it is a good idea for some people to say things like "I'll kill anyone who comes for my guns" because it helps prop those quieter ones up, tells 'em they are not alone. That's where I am these days, one of the few benefits of growing old (I don't have to put up with crap or keep my mouth shut). If some prosecutor comes after me, for merely expressing an opinion, well then that is war. I say what I please.

Both types are needed. If the noisy ones weren't around, and everyone carefully kept their heads down and never rocked a boat, then we wouldn't have much of a country here, would we?
 
I agree. To a large extent they are a paper tiger. They couldn't even get homeschoolers (largely moms) back in the government schools, and the teacher's unions are the most powerful interest groups in every state. 95% of New Yorkers are flouting their "SAFE" law.

I have no problem with the people who want to fly under the radar, especially if they will fight when the time comes.

I also think it is a good idea for some people to say things like "I'll kill anyone who comes for my guns" because it helps prop those quieter ones up, tells 'em they are not alone. That's where I am these days, one of the few benefits of growing old (I don't have to put up with crap or keep my mouth shut). If some prosecutor comes after me, for merely expressing an opinion, well then that is war. I say what I please.

Both types are needed. If the noisy ones weren't around, and everyone carefully kept their heads down and never rocked a boat, then we wouldn't have much of a country here, would we?

The problem with voicing your displeasure with "I'll kill anyone who comes from my guns" is that the LEO community singles those individuals out as domestic terrorists / enemy combatants and applies the so - called "Patriot Act" against them.

Remember how many citizen militia groups there were in the 1990s and early 2000s. Would you like to guess what happened to scores of those members?
 
LEO community singles those individuals out as domestic terrorists / enemy combatants and applies the so - called "Patriot Act" against them.

Hasn't happened to me, and I've been doing this for decades now.

I have a theory about that. Most government functionaries want an easy job and a fat pension. The last thing they need is real risk or danger (which is why cops sat for hours outside that nightclub in Orlando). If you are just expressing a radical opinion, most cops are going to say "eh", particularly if that person is determined not to be a pushover. They are not going to tackle someone with nothing left to lose, which is one of the reason they leave old men alone.

The most effective enforcement there is, is self-enforcement and fear. Not cops, not prosecutors, not "the system". It's our own brains that keeps us enslaved, when we don't have to be.

"You know what the problem is. The fences aren't just 'round the farm. They're up here - in your heads."
--Ginger in "Chicken Run"
 
OutlawBlack.png
 
Let's say your state enacts a state ban. Would you turn your stuff in or move to a free state?

Let's say there is a nationwide ban enacted. Would you turn your stuff in or move out of the country to a place with better gun laws?

Currently we have the best gun laws in the world, but if such bans are enacted, we would really not be sitting in that boat anymore.

At that point, do you arm yourself with WASP spray (pepper spray is illegal in many draconian countries) and hope that you make it your whole life without being a victim of a violent crime? Pray that home invaders don't make you watch them do things to your wife or daughter (this has happened before)?

Personally I'd move to a free state, and keep moving until it gets so bad that I'd just relocate to a tropical paradise to live cheap and be unarmed for a fraction of the cost of living...


LOL :s0101:
 
Hasn't happened to me, and I've been doing this for decades now.

I have a theory about that. Most government functionaries want an easy job and a fat pension. The last thing they need is real risk or danger (which is why cops sat for hours outside that nightclub in Orlando). If you are just expressing a radical opinion, most cops are going to say "eh", particularly if that person is determined not to be a pushover. They are not going to tackle someone with nothing left to lose, which is one of the reason they leave old men alone.

The most effective enforcement there is, is self-enforcement and fear. Not cops, not prosecutors, not "the system". It's our own brains that keeps us enslaved, when we don't have to be.

"You know what the problem is. The fences aren't just 'round the farm. They're up here - in your heads."
--Ginger in "Chicken Run"

I'd like to say something and hope that you will take this as constructive criticism. To the rest of you I hope that you will bear with me for a few paragraphs and check out the information provided.

The way to be effective in preserving our Rights is to be unified. If you don't have unity of purpose, you won't have much of an effect on the outcome of legislation, court decisions and public opinion. As an individual, you can moan and groan all you want... unless and until Uncle Scam wants you. You might go years - even decades and nothing will happen. Then something totally unrelated could happen. An example might be that you have a spat with a neighbor who calls the cops and an argument ends up in court.

Once in court, the government can mention your threatening words and actions as some kind of proof that you are violent, dangerous, intimidating, etc. Yes, they can. I've seen it happen.

Once upon a time, not too long ago, there was a citizens militia operating under the umbrella of the Patriot Network. They were very successful. The state HQ was so effective in lobbying that the U.S. Congressman in that state HQ's district introduced legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment and get rid of the income tax along with the IRS. This group fought gun control, One World Government, etc. and all quite effectively.

Then the LEO community created an incorporated version of that militia to deal with discrediting the organization. They funded it quite well and put the worst scum of the earth in charge. What was the public to think? You had irresponsible and dangerous people spouting the kinds of philosophies we're debating here on one side and the responsible and effective militia on the other.

To deal with that part of the militia that buys into the belief that they said this or that and got away with it (and falsely believing that the LEO community was ignoring them) the LEOs turned a convicted pedophile out of prison to infiltrate that faction of the militia. Are you with me?

And so, a group of old pharts, sitting around in a coffee shop having this same discussion became the target of a serious sting. These were otherwise law abiding citizens, veterans, and patriots. Other than their ignorance, they were good people that got led astray by a savvy criminal.

Yep. I just happen to have the links for the proof you need:

Tom Junod on the Waffle House Terrorists (http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a12404/waffle-house-terrorists-0212/)

2 Georgia men found guilty of plotting terrorism at Waffle House (http://www.myajc.com/news/news/crime-law/2-georgia-men-found-guilty-of-plotting-terrorism-a/ncsLz/)

I want you to notice that the men who were charged were warned by competent counsel as to what would happen if they continued the path they had taken. They apparently ignored the warnings and ended up in prison.

You talk among yourselves and think you wouldn't do some of what these guys did. But, you might be talked into it by a savvy criminal. Maybe someone else you associate with might do so and the group you hang with don't tell you everything. Then, one day, you become a LEO target and you get on the wrong end due to guilt by association.

If your objective is do something that will change the status quo, then heed my warning. Do not say or do anything that even hints at violence, an illegal act, or hatred / animosity / intolerance toward the government.

Publicly you have to write your congresscritters, send the letter to the editor for publication, lobby, call politicians and show up at county commission meetings, town hall meetings, etc. As citizens we are required to exhaust all of our non-violent legal and political avenues of redress. We have to talk to our neighbors, pastors at church, family, etc.

In private there are other strategies that I do not discuss because if the left knew the plan, they could counter-act it. But, know this, until every non-violent avenue of redress is exhausted, we won't be justified in extraordinary measures. At the same time, while we're debating doing something, the left IS doing things - like taking our Rights away on an incremental basis.

I would never send any of you to jail or to Hell so please study this posting and prayerfully consider the message I'm bringing to this discussion. Thank you for your time.
 
I don't think the cautions were made in regard to hypotheticals. The ones that have made me wince a little were declarative sentences.

There have been statements made on forums, including this one- that might, should it become useful to a prosecutor's or FBI office, be included in a set of evidence to 'show' how so-and-so had expressed thoughts of starting or being part of an anti-government uprising (which incidentally is called "insurgency" in countries like Iraq and Bananastan.)

You haven't noticed these kinds of statements? Apparently some folks have, and that's why they cared enough to advise that it's a good idea to be circumspect when bloviating about "there'll be blood in the streets" and blah blah blah I'll shoot 'em if they try to take my guns" blah blah. Internet posturing that seems harmless now can look real bad in court or in a "finding".

This whole "Patriot" Act and anti-"Terrorism" fever cuts both ways, against the actual ISIS lunatics and impulsive people just venting.

And 'maybe they should think twice' is gonna help exactly Richard-squat if somebody's rendered out to some salt mine in Bananastan for 'enhanced interviews'.

Just look at how every time some homegrown loony is arrested, their social media statements are used to "prove" how guilty they are. Under current laws, which I completely disagree with, a trial and conviction are not even necessary. A special agent writes a letter and welcome to The List.

In criminal law we are taught the way you prove what someone was thinking, in order to establish intent, you present what they did. And writing statements is a form of 'what they did.'

A friend will tell you when you're about to step into a hole. Someone who doesn't give a dang will let you step in it. I wouldn't berate the one trying to watch your six.

If it goes to court you are already cooked. Our justice system is in lock step with the liberal agenda. You think you'll find 12 jurors if you even get a jury trial that will be willing to stand up for your rapidly vanishing rights. I used to, not that naive any more. Chances are it will be an "administrative law judge" who will find for the state in short order and they will throw the book at you. Any news on the Harney arrestees? How about the Yantis killing? Nope, yesterdays news and people with power could care less.
Believe me, I don't like where all this is going any more than any other sane American. There is no fair play/equal justice for the law abiding citizen anymore.

Brutus Out
 
I'd like to say something and hope that you will take this as constructive criticism.

I don't dispute what you write here. Yes when you get on somebody's radar screen, all the cards in the deck will be stacked against you. That's why all this talk about "the republic" and "due process" and so forth are all nonsense.

I also remember that guy "Big Al" (forgot his last name) who was a gun shop owner and effective in the Washington state legislature, getting railroaded by BATF and ending up in Sheridan prison (in Oregon).

We were running a group called "Free State Wyoming" and we got our share of government provocateurs and such. We just kicked them out when they showed up.

As to exhausting all the nonviolent and political avenues, I've pretty much done all that. I don't bother writing my Congresscritters or voting in elections any more. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. However I'm not advocating violence; nonvoting and speaking in forums is not violent. Disobedience of evil laws is not violent. Doing what you please is not necessarily violent. As an anarchist I follow the non-aggression principle.

Non-aggression principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle)

What's more, I support panarchy. That means I have no problems with any group of people, be they socialists, communists, fascists or whatever - as long as they don't try to drag me into their schemes or put a boot on my neck. I'm probably the most tolerant person you will run into.

But if attacked, I will respond in kind.

I know the criminal "Justice System" is a sausage maker. I don't understand why any old men would allow themselves to be crammed into it, over some BS charge. We're all going to die some day, why not take some bastard with you? Better than dying in a cage, or living your life out on your knees.

Most of your criticisms assume one would submit to arrest. When the system is corrupt, and not interested in justice, why would a person submit? It seems pointless. Either fly under the radar and keep your mouth shut, or say what you please and get ready for war, if some bubblegum wants to start it with you. You are all grown-ups, you are responsible for your actions, and (it's hoped) you understand reality.

When to resist. When to submit., by Paul Bonneau (http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle589-20100926-07.html)

When the Goons Show Up On Your Doorstep..., by Paul Bonneau (http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2009/tle515-20090419-10.html)

I should also point out that the vast majority of people, those who might be swayed to support gun control, are going to be dismayed at the prospect of civil war resulting from gun confiscation, so they are not likely to support confiscation. Talking about "saving just one life, means it is worth it" makes no sense in a war. So I don't believe being forthright about my intentions if attacked, or pointing out the likelihood of war like Mike Vanderboegh does, harms our cause in any way.
 
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I don't dispute what you write here. Yes when you get on somebody's radar screen, all the cards in the deck will be stacked against you. That's why all this talk about "the republic" and "due process" and so forth are all nonsense.

I also remember that guy "Big Al" (forgot his last name) who was a gun shop owner and effective in the Washington state legislature, getting railroaded by BATF and ending up in Sheridan prison (in Oregon).

We were running a group called "Free State Wyoming" and we got our share of government provocateurs and such. We just kicked them out when they showed up.

As to exhausting all the nonviolent and political avenues, I've pretty much done all that. I don't bother writing my Congresscritters or voting in elections any more. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. However I'm not advocating violence; nonvoting and speaking in forums is not violent. Disobedience of evil laws is not violent. Doing what you please is not necessarily violent. As an anarchist I follow the non-aggression principle.

Non-aggression principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle)

What's more, I support panarchy. That means I have no problems with any group of people, be they socialists, communists, fascists or whatever - as long as they don't try to drag me into their schemes or put a boot on my neck. I'm probably the most tolerant person you will run into.

But if attacked, I will respond in kind.

I know the criminal "Justice System" is a sausage maker. I don't understand why any old men would allow themselves to be crammed into it, over some BS charge. We're all going to die some day, why not take some bastard with you? Better than dying in a cage, or living your life out on your knees.

Most of your criticisms assume one would submit to arrest. When the system is corrupt, and not interested in justice, why would a person submit? It seems pointless. Either fly under the radar and keep your mouth shut, or say what you please and get ready for war, if some bubblegum wants to start it with you. You are all grown-ups, you are responsible for your actions, and (it's hoped) you understand reality.

When to resist. When to submit., by Paul Bonneau (http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle589-20100926-07.html)

When the Goons Show Up On Your Doorstep..., by Paul Bonneau (http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2009/tle515-20090419-10.html)

I should also point out that the vast majority of people, those who might be swayed to support gun control, are going to be dismayed at the prospect of civil war resulting from gun confiscation, so they are not likely to support confiscation. Talking about "saving just one life, means it is worth it" makes no sense in a war. So I don't believe being forthright about my intentions if attacked, or pointing out the likelihood of war like Mike Vanderboegh does, harms our cause in any way.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Still, the path you choose to follow should never be discussed in an open forum. You don't supply intel to those you may have to face in the future in an actual battle.

Make no mistake, I do not believe that voting will change the balance of things. If voting could change the outcome, it would become illegal. Staying involved is more about winning over the few to your cause AND developing the narrative that the left is the aggressors since you are exhausting all your nonviolent legal and political avenues of redress.

As people see you fight and get rejected by the system, they are more apt to support your cause when you have to go beyond the obvious. They know you are not the caricature created by the MSM. You employ those tactics for a host of other reasons besides the ultimate goal of winning via the legislative process.
 
:s0101: Good points all around! One thing we were always reminded of was never broad cast your intentions to your enemy! Move with out being seen, or heard, and always have a plan for when things go south! The politics of what is happening all around is predetermined and thus, unlikely you or I can change it or make any difference! Who ever "wins" this election has all ready been determined for us, so any hope and change is all ready in the works for this new ruler! We the plebs are left to our own little slice of utopia to fight for what little our masters allow us. We are just about out of time, death by a thousand cuts is swiftly accelerating to it's determined end, and soon, freedom may have to come from the barrel of a rifle!
 

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