worst place to be

[drew]

We need smaller businesses making innovations. But that's not because of the absolute volume, it's more for the agility.

Yes, smaller businesses are almost always more agile. They also have motivation to innovate. The bureaucracy and risk aversion present in large corporations aren't good for either.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

GM and your bailout money - is anyone paying attention? Creating lots of jobs - in China, Mexico, Brazil...

http://www.industryweek.com/articles/gm_to_build_new_vehicle__at_plant_in_mexico_22462.aspx

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/05/gm-brazil-begins-building-a-new-engine-plant/

http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...content/Pages/news/us/en/2011/Mar/0318_brazil

<broken link removed>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/01/us-gm-china-idUSTRE7100XY20110201

<broken link removed>

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

www.dailyjobcuts.com

 

[Gunner3456]

The numbers on manufacturing are out there and available to check.

I posted some above - post #56. Our manufacturing as a percentage of our GDP has fallen from a high of 30% to a current 11%. That's a disaster because manufacturing creates new wealth. It's called value added. It also creates jobs. Our former manufacturing cities are now abandoned and in ruins.

Free trade works only if there's a level playing field where our goods are just as welcome there as theirs are here. This is NOT the case with, for instance, China. They are raping us.

Also, our regulations for businesses are driving our jobs away to countries which don't have those regulations.

We are screwing ourselves and we are going down for the count.

PS I also have an MBA. Education doesn't mean squat without wisdom. I'll take wisdom over education all day long.

 

[Thebastidge]

Design is also a value add, so is marketing, so is transportation and distribution. Every step in the chain adds value. If I have 50 thousand widgets in a warehouse in Peoria, and you move 20 thousand of them to a palce with no widgets, it's a value add.

Manufacturing jobs are not the only valuable jobs. And jobs per se are not the only priority of the economy. They are important, yes. But if we had a compeltely robot-fueld economy where people did no manufacturing jobs, it's possible to still have excess production, surpluses, etc.

"Free trade works only if there's a level playing field where our goods are just as welcome there as theirs are here. This is NOT the case with, for instance, China. They are raping us."

In this, you are incorrect. We still benefit from ridding ourselves of import tariffs, even if they don't. Because it makes their goods even cheaper for us to purchase. We are making a mistake in that we are financing our purchases with debt, by issuing currency and diluting the value of the dollar, but that has nothing to do with free trade, tariffs, or balance of trade.

Why do people always get pissy about about things when you give context? Congrats on having an MBA. I don't have one. I did study towards one and I've done a lot of reading outside of that program. My interests are more in economics.

 

[Gunner3456]

Design is also a value add, so is marketing, so is transportation and distribution. Every step in the chain adds value. If I have 50 thousand widgets in a warehouse in Peoria, and you move 20 thousand of them to a palce with no widgets, it's a value add.

Manufacturing jobs are not the only valuable jobs. And jobs per se are not the only priority of the economy. They are important, yes. But if we had a compeltely robot-fueld economy where people did no manufacturing jobs, it's possible to still have excess production, surpluses, etc.

"Free trade works only if there's a level playing field where our goods are just as welcome there as theirs are here. This is NOT the case with, for instance, China. They are raping us."

In this, you are incorrect. We still benefit from ridding ourselves of import tariffs, even if they don't. Because it makes their goods even cheaper for us to purchase. We are making a mistake in that we are financing our purchases with debt, by issuing currency and diluting the value of the dollar, but that has nothing to do with free trade, tariffs, or balance of trade.

Why do people always get pissy about about things when you give context? Congrats on having an MBA. I don't have one. I did study towards one and I've done a lot of reading outside of that program. My interests are more in economics.

So, with all of that rhetoric, why do we have such high unemployment in areas which used to be our manufacturing pride, and why are those places in ruins? Why are there 300,000 unemployed in Detroit when there used to be 300,000 auto manufacturing jobs there and now there are just 30,000? Could it have anything to do with GM now building cars in 35 countries including China? Sorry, you just don't get it. This is happening all over the country.

 

[Partsproduction]

I'm having trouble following all this with my country hick brain. The only education I got was in high school and below, except for the eyes God gave me and what I see around me.

Could it have anything to do with GM now building cars in 35 countries including China? Sorry, you just don't get it. This is happening all over the country.

Does this not have to do with the complexities of manufacturing in the USA, dealing with unions, our tax structure and government regulations? I hope you are saying that smaller government might equal a resurgence of manufacturing in America, because that's true. The will to excel is a powerful force of nature that is being hobbled now by a worthless bloated government structure.

 

[Sasquatchvnv]

Nevermind.

 

[Thebastidge]

It doesn't require deliberate malice, just short term self-interest of small groups, special interests, and politicians who've spent too many terms in office trumping the long term interest of the country. I do get it: manufacturing doesn't employ as many people as it used to. Clearly.

Where we disagree is that I don't believe that manufacturing jobs are the only ones that matter. Yes, I want a robust manufacturing capability in our country, because of the danger of war or economic collapse making it impractical to acquire our goods from overseas. But I don't think that means we need X percentage of our GDP dedicated to manufacturing in order to achieve it, especially not an X percentage based upon the beginning of the industrial age. And we do, in fact have a robust manufacturing industry. We produce more physical goods than ever before in the past. That may not be a huge portion of the economy, but it's adequate to gearing up to producing our own stuff in a relatively short period of time, should the rest of the earth be somehow swallowed by Fenris Wolf.

The factors that are driving our manufacturing jobs overseas are not trade barriers or even the balance of trade. Balance of trade is a symptom, not a cause. We are losing certain types of labour-intensive jobs because of comparative advantage. It's simply not cost-effective to do them here. Partly because no one really wants to do some of them. Trade barriers will only benefit a tiny percentage of people, at the expense of everyone else AND the long-term viability of our economy. You can't mandate the value of other people's labour.

How many of you really want to work in a factory, making widgets on a production line all day? Spot-welding two pieces of metal together all day long every day?

We need to be taking advantage of our (still relatively) high level of education, critical thinking ability, and creativity to invent and eingeer things (including processes or automation) which improve our quality of life. We can then consume some more leisure time in the arts, or other civilized enterprises. We've achieved abundance, it's now time to achieve quality.

That is, if we don't flush it all away with backwards economic and social policy and loss of liberty.

Trade barriers do not benefit us. They are an ethically insupportable limit on individual liberty, and simply not good economic policy.

If you want to see manufacturing jobs surge in the united states, then eliminate minimum wage controls, eliminate trade barriers, scale the EPA back to an advisory role that the courts can use in determining damages, get rid of the Dept of Labour, eliminate all LAWS that require union membership (closed shop states), and stop trying to bail out the big 3 auto makers while they waste money on 100 different lines of autos that nobody really wants. Lower or eliminate the corporate income tax (a stupid double taxation situation anyway) and make it easier for small businesses to compete by lowering the regulatory compliance and reporting requirements for smaller businesses (discourages them from getting "too big to fail", which is a load of crap anyway.) If you eliminated the CAFE Standards, I imagine that it would be a LOT easier for smaller auto makers to compete, and then your GM's could've been piece-meakled off in a bankruptcy situation such that individual plants would stay in business, under a new company, new management, and perhaps even changing the product. Americans are conscious enough of gas prices to make their own decisions on fuel milage and reward the innovators. We don't need the CAFE standards, and they're clearly a failure.

 

[Gunner3456]

I'm having trouble following all this with my country hick brain. The only education I got was in high school and below, except for the eyes God gave me and what I see around me.

Does this not have to do with the complexities of manufacturing in the USA, dealing with unions, our tax structure and government regulations? I hope you are saying that smaller government might equal a resurgence of manufacturing in America, because that's true. The will to excel is a powerful force of nature that is being hobbled now by a worthless bloated government structure.

Sorry I missed this. Yes, I agree with you completely. Good points.

 

[Gunner3456]

-snip-
If you want to see manufacturing jobs surge in the united states, then eliminate minimum wage controls, eliminate trade barriers, scale the EPA back to an advisory role that the courts can use in determining damages, get rid of the Dept of Labour, eliminate all LAWS that require union membership (closed shop states), and stop trying to bail out the big 3 auto makers while they waste money on 100 different lines of autos that nobody really wants. Lower or eliminate the corporate income tax (a stupid double taxation situation anyway) and make it easier for small businesses to compete by lowering the regulatory compliance and reporting requirements for smaller businesses (discourages them from getting "too big to fail", which is a load of crap anyway.) If you eliminated the CAFE Standards, I imagine that it would be a LOT easier for smaller auto makers to compete, and then your GM's could've been piece-meakled off in a bankruptcy situation such that individual plants would stay in business, under a new company, new management, and perhaps even changing the product. Americans are conscious enough of gas prices to make their own decisions on fuel milage and reward the innovators. We don't need the CAFE standards, and they're clearly a failure.

Right on.

 

[Just Jim]

We have few directions to go and none of them will work since the government has spent all our money.

Articles: How Would Obama's Economic Plan Really Work?

jj

 

[EZLivin]

...Once you start putting the pieces together, you realize that this was all intentionally done to drive this country into the ground...

I'm going to disagree on that one. Sure, there are evil bastards (such as Soros) who would love to see us taken down, but overall I think it is more greed and stupidity than some grand plan to destroy a powerful economy and ruin the world. The "greed" part is led by professional politicians (arrogant, elitist, sociopaths) who are bought and paid for by large corporations (including the investment banks) whose goal it is to eliminate their competition via excessive rules and regulations. The "stupidity" part is led by the voter population who, like Pavlov's dogs, can be relied upon to always act (vote) the same way when certain stimulus (photogenic, arrogant, sociopaths promising to take from someone else in order to give it to them) is provided.

That is how I see it anyway. I suppose all the speculation as to "why" is mostly just academic. We are following a long-term pattern (cycle) that was/is inevitable. I don't know what it will look like here when we emerge on the other side (2020-2033), but I do know that it is going to be markedly different than it is now.

 

[Gunner3456]

There are a lot of powerful people who want a one-world socialist government. They believe that is the answer to wars and poverty. It is hardly a new movement.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No h ell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

-John Lennon


There's a new world coming
And it's just around the bend
There's a new world coming
This one's coming to an end

There's a new voice calling
You can hear it if you try
And it's growing stronger
With each day that passes by

There's a brand new morning
Rising clear and sweet and free
There's a new day dawning
That belongs to you and me

Yes a new world's coming
The one we've had visions of
Coming in peace, coming in joy
Coming in love

Yes a new world's coming
The one we've had visions of
Coming in peace, coming in joy
Coming in love
Coming in love
Coming in love

-Mama Cass Elliot​

 

[Hook686]

It certainly does not seem to be one of love to me. It seems like just more of the same old greed born of fear.

 

[swoop]

There are a lot of powerful people who want a one-world socialist government. They believe that is the answer to wars and poverty. It is hardly a new movement.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No h ell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

-John Lennon


There's a new world coming
And it's just around the bend
There's a new world coming
This one's coming to an end

There's a new voice calling
You can hear it if you try
And it's growing stronger
With each day that passes by

There's a brand new morning
Rising clear and sweet and free
There's a new day dawning
That belongs to you and me

Yes a new world's coming
The one we've had visions of
Coming in peace, coming in joy
Coming in love

Yes a new world's coming
The one we've had visions of
Coming in peace, coming in joy
Coming in love
Coming in love
Coming in love

-Mama Cass Elliot​

Bingo Gunner...Just imagine no Heaven, no countries, no possessions...We're getting there fast!

 

[Gunner3456]

Bingo Gunner...Just imagine no Heaven, no countries, no possessions...We're getting there fast!

Yep, and the globalist belief system is far older than that. It's just that the Hippie movement latched onto it. Now they've grown up and are running our universities, our K-12 schools, our governments, and even our large global corporations.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world.

No one needs to agree with me, but I believe our country is being deliberately destroyed to this end.

 

[Thebastidge]

Well, Soviet defectors have revealed that they had a deliberate policy of destruction from within. I won't deny that conspiracies exist. I think they're less effective than we fear, and more effective than most imagine, but I still maintain that the major damage is being done largely because people of good will and zero perspective are willing to do whatever is expedient at the moment to achieve their goals, rather than work structurally to replicate our successes and reduce our problems.

 

[Gunner3456]

Well, Soviet defectors have revealed that they had a deliberate policy of destruction from within. I won't deny that conspiracies exist. I think they're less effective than we fear, and more effective than most imagine, but I still maintain that the major damage is being done largely because people of good will and zero perspective are willing to do whatever is expedient at the moment to achieve their goals, rather than work structurally to replicate our successes and reduce our problems.

First, Thank you for your service and please stay safe. I didn't notice where you are at first. You are my hero.

We are borrowing 40 cents of every dollar we spend. It's unsustainable.

Every baby born in the US today is born already $230,000 in debt.

We are sending $700 billion dollars a year to countries which hate us to buy oil, yet our leaders refuse to let us become energy independent, keeping our money at home and creating millions of good jobs in the process.

I could go on. Whether it's deliberate doesn't change that it's real, and we are in a world of hurts and going downhill fast.

One more time. Please stay safe.

 

[Partsproduction]

BTW, I heard recently that shortly before he died John Lennon had "converted" to conservative values and regretted his previous leftist bent. Funny, before it became public knowledge he got snipped. Probably just a coincidence.

Yeah right.