Why are so many gun owners scared?

[Ura-Ki]

OutlawHoss just nailed it!

 

[Mor4us]

no kidding.. dude is edumacated!! I bet he prolly gradiduated clean outa the third grade!

 

[OutlawHoss]

no kidding.. dude is edumacated!! I bet he prolly gradiduated clean outa the third grade!

I graduated highschool, but in spite of that I received an honest education, mainly at the univeristy of life!

(and I grew up without video games)

 

[Mor4us]

I graduated highschool, but in spite of that I received an honest education, mainly at the univeristy of life!

(and I grew up without video games)

I have to say, that was a hellova post.

 

[Koda]

excellent post OutlawHoss...

 

[edslhead]

I think the refusal to live in fear, of being victimized, and empowering oneself to be capable of competently handling any number of issues that are common to our society on one's own, is what is important, and a self-justifying reason for carrying a firearm (and being trained to use a firearm). Self-reliance is a mind set and lifestyle that makes the individual a better person irregardless of the reason why or other myriad details.
This self-reliance, this individualistic ability to think and act for oneself, scares anti-gun folk, and folk that think there should be a homogeneous vulnerability among the populace to justify a greater reliance on some 'higher authority' (not as in a deity, but as in government). Abdication of the duty to be responsible for oneself is being taught at large in western culture, and subsequently the acquiescence to authority without critical and self-informed thought. This is the sea change we are all witnessing currently, specifically in the unfolding of the generations. Older generations who experienced hardship understood that they had no one else to depend on other then their own, and out of the necessity of self-preservation, have naturally taken on the mantle of self-determination as well as all the means to do so (which necessarily includes self-defense). It seems that the younger generations (this is a generalization, I know there are many exceptions to this) have a different impetus and paradigm for their sense of self and how they define themselves. I don't know exactly what the difference is, as I am of the former generation's values, but the OP, whether in earnest or not, innocently or not, has demonstrated this fundamental difference in how one relates to the world with their question that seems to be anathema to lot of members of here, that the prerequisite condition to carry a firearm is one of fear. I, we, may say that the prerequisite condition to carry a firearm is so that we do not fear, and in so doing maintain our freedom and self-reliance for the maintenance and betterment of ourselves and our own.
So I think the variety of responses to the OP's query is very telling of the people that write them, my self included, and if the OP is still following this thread, then they may realize that however they intended their question, it is not such a simple issue of fear, that we are a plurality of voices with a plurality of experiences, like most self-identified sub-cultures in America, it is a part of who we are, and who we are cannot (and should not) be reduced to a simple answer.

I had to look up a few words but , spot on!!

 

[jcruz907]

Folks, nolimeplease is an obvious troll. That he/she has been able to generate 8 pages of response is far more than I would have expected. And while I am adding to that, the fact is we all know that bad things happen to good people all the time. A quick sampling of the news (the NRA does a good job of tracking incidents where people use firearms in self-defense) makes that obvious and a quick look at Liveleak videos would have one think that it happens more than it doesn't. I was born and raised in NYC and spent the of my career in LE there. In that time, I've had a gun put to my face, been in an off-duty shootout and drew my weapon more times than not when conducting enforcement in my time on patrol. I've also had the occasion to need to draw my weapon on several occasions off-duty in so-called "nice and quiet" neighborhoods outside the city. So, it can happen anytime and anywhere and I believe the direction our society is going in, is only going to make things worse. I avoid going to places where I cannot carry and do so only if absolutely necessary.

While that's been my experience, some may have it easier, some harder: One of my partners was involved in 7 fatal shootings, 3 of which were off duty (we called him The Magnet) while others never drew their weapons from their holsters. Again, one never knows when something bad requiring the need of a firearm is going to happen or to whom but we know it will to someone, somewhere and choose not to be on the losing end of that statistic.

We own firearms because our Constitution-created by men who had the wisdom to allow us to place a potentially tyrannical government on notice that it risks much in abusing the people it governs-says we can.

Since nolimeplease ignores these facts of life, his intentions are obvious.

 

[sakurama]

Not trying to stir the pot here. But ...

Good luck with that.

I read the first three-four pages and once I started seeing the photos of hispanic gangsters and the comments on muslims and genderless toilets I figured I didn't need to keep reading. You got your answer.

Fear. Unrealistic, ignorance based fear.

It's the same fear that the NRA has used for the last 40 years to promote their brand. When I was a kid the NRA was a gun SAFETY group and promoted hunter safety. They realized as the culture became more urban and less rural that they needed to keep up with the times so they turned away from hunting and promoted "protection" but in order to push that agenda they had to get people on board so they started promoting fear. Fear of break ins, fear of robberies, fear of car jackings. Just fear.

Sadly this has worked out extremely well. As you quite rightly mentioned there's pretty much no reason for all this fear. It's the same sort of slight of hand that keeps people in the midwest worried about terrorism instead of heart disease. I'd wager that the thing that will kill most gun owners is a heart attack but that's not something you can fix with an AR or a Glock.

As way of an example I lived in NYC for 20 years and in some pretty rough places. I was once threatened by a drug dealer on my block, "I just got out for attempted murder man, I'd hate to have bubblegum someone up again, you feel me?" He asked me for money.

Yeah, I felt him. If I'd dealt with that by way of showing a gun or threatening him all I'd have done is escalate the situation. I sympathized with him and then did the smart thing - gave his mom some home baked cookies. After that I was "made" on the block. I turned an enemy into an ally and when bubblegum went down on the block I got a knock on the door to let me know I should park somewhere else that night.

But being smart isn't as cool as being a mall ninja.

Now I know this isn't popular but as a left leaning gun owner I'm sort of sick to death of right leaning nut jobs making the act of owning a gun an extreme and crazy thing. Just like the way the crazies have taken over the republican party and are driving it off a cliff right wing nut jobs and the NRA are going to be the ones who actually get draconian gun laws passed.

The harder and farther you push the culture to the right the smaller your numbers are going to be. It's a shame no one can see this. Personally I'd like to see hunting make a comeback. There are countless hipsters and young people who would probably love to get into hunting as it would fit right in with the whole farm to table food movement. Is that happening? No. Are you losing numbers? Yes.

Look around people. You're all a bunch of middle aged white guys and your numbers in this country are shrinking. You should be promoting hunting, gun safety, target shooting and all the great non threatening things you can do with a gun.

But that won't happen - at least any time soon. Until we understand the real meaning of community - learning to get along and compromise with people we don't always agree with so as to be able to mutually support each other - nothing will change. I grew up in a small town where that ethos was in place and it made for a great community. Circling the wagons and waging hate on anyone you don't know or who doesn't look or act like you only serves to make you smaller, not stronger.

No gun is going to fix that.

Gregor

 

[Koda]

Look around people. You're all a bunch of middle aged white guys and your numbers in this country are shrinking. You should be promoting hunting, gun safety, target shooting and all the great non threatening things you can do with a gun.

hunting has nothing to do with the Second Amendment....

 

[Maverickti]

Not trying to stir the pot here. But why is it that so many gun owners talk about personal defense situations with a given firearm? In my 40 years on this planet, I've never been in a situation where a firearm would even have been a consideration to use against another human being. I realize most media outlets sell fear, and a great majority of the weapons that people carry and own are for person assault of sorts. But I'm not at war, nor are they. And my wallet or $3000 car is not worth taking a life over, no matter what kind of scum the perp may be. Hell, legal fees would be much more substantial for the use of deadly force to protect anything I own than the item itself is worth.
I understand then the last thing (IMO) to protect is my person. Or those that I care for. But when? Where? Why? These things just don't happen. Am I really that lucky? That a situation that would truly justify killing another human being has never happened to me, or anyone I have ever talked to? It seems the majority of violent crime happens to those who are involved in that level of crime itself.
Why do so many gun owners invest so much thought and practice into the idea that they may have to someday "defend themselves"? I know this idea I spin will set off lots of fire on this forum. But it's just a discussion, an opinion I am curious about.
I am a gun owner, by the way. Yes, I have a CCP. Lots of "black guns" in my safe.
They are fun to shoot.

 

[jcruz907]

Good luck with that.

I read the first three-four pages and once I started seeing the photos of hispanic gangsters and the comments on muslims and genderless toilets I figured I didn't need to keep reading. You got your answer.

Fear. Unrealistic, ignorance based fear.

It's the same fear that the NRA has used for the last 40 years to promote their brand. When I was a kid the NRA was a gun SAFETY group and promoted hunter safety. They realized as the culture became more urban and less rural that they needed to keep up with the times so they turned away from hunting and promoted "protection" but in order to push that agenda they had to get people on board so they started promoting fear. Fear of break ins, fear of robberies, fear of car jackings. Just fear.

Sadly this has worked out extremely well. As you quite rightly mentioned there's pretty much no reason for all this fear. It's the same sort of slight of hand that keeps people in the midwest worried about terrorism instead of heart disease. I'd wager that the thing that will kill most gun owners is a heart attack but that's not something you can fix with an AR or a Glock.

As way of an example I lived in NYC for 20 years and in some pretty rough places. I was once threatened by a drug dealer on my block, "I just got out for attempted murder man, I'd hate to have bubblegum someone up again, you feel me?" He asked me for money.

Yeah, I felt him. If I'd dealt with that by way of showing a gun or threatening him all I'd have done is escalate the situation. I sympathized with him and then did the smart thing - gave his mom some home baked cookies. After that I was "made" on the block. I turned an enemy into an ally and when bubblegum went down on the block I got a knock on the door to let me know I should park somewhere else that night.

But being smart isn't as cool as being a mall ninja.

Now I know this isn't popular but as a left leaning gun owner I'm sort of sick to death of right leaning nut jobs making the act of owning a gun an extreme and crazy thing. Just like the way the crazies have taken over the republican party and are driving it off a cliff right wing nut jobs and the NRA are going to be the ones who actually get draconian gun laws passed.

The harder and farther you push the culture to the right the smaller your numbers are going to be. It's a shame no one can see this. Personally I'd like to see hunting make a comeback. There are countless hipsters and young people who would probably love to get into hunting as it would fit right in with the whole farm to table food movement. Is that happening? No. Are you losing numbers? Yes.

Look around people. You're all a bunch of middle aged white guys and your numbers in this country are shrinking. You should be promoting hunting, gun safety, target shooting and all the great non threatening things you can do with a gun.

But that won't happen - at least any time soon. Until we understand the real meaning of community - learning to get along and compromise with people we don't always agree with so as to be able to mutually support each other - nothing will change. I grew up in a small town where that ethos was in place and it made for a great community. Circling the wagons and waging hate on anyone you don't know or who doesn't look or act like you only serves to make you smaller, not stronger.

No gun is going to fix that.

Gregor

"...Unrealistic, ignorance based fear"?

MS-13 doesn't exist?
Terrorists don't exist?
Crime doesn't exist?

And all we need to do is "compromise"?

You're an obvious troll too or maybe the same one with a different name.

Just how do you propose to compromise with MS-13 or AQ or ISIS? Let me answer that for you: You Can't!

And the fact that you prefer to live in a society where "bubblegum", a convicted criminal, gets to dictate where and when one can or cannot park his car says all we need to know about you.

You might also want to check your numbers. Republicans are voting in the primaries at historic levels where Democrats - not so much. I just attended the convention in Dallas and it looked very full to me. In fact, almost half the delegates voted to insert language allowing to vote for secession on the platform should the federal government continue acting outside the rule of law as established by the Constitution. Like the 2nd Amendment, it was meant as a strong message to the federal government about abusing it's power.
May God continue to bless state of Texas.

 

[Maverickti]

...and why do you have a CCP?

 

[etrain16]

Good luck with that.

I read the first three-four pages and once I started seeing the photos of hispanic gangsters and the comments on muslims and genderless toilets I figured I didn't need to keep reading. You got your answer.

Fear. Unrealistic, ignorance based fear.

It's the same fear that the NRA has used for the last 40 years to promote their brand. When I was a kid the NRA was a gun SAFETY group and promoted hunter safety. They realized as the culture became more urban and less rural that they needed to keep up with the times so they turned away from hunting and promoted "protection" but in order to push that agenda they had to get people on board so they started promoting fear. Fear of break ins, fear of robberies, fear of car jackings. Just fear.

Sadly this has worked out extremely well. As you quite rightly mentioned there's pretty much no reason for all this fear. It's the same sort of slight of hand that keeps people in the midwest worried about terrorism instead of heart disease. I'd wager that the thing that will kill most gun owners is a heart attack but that's not something you can fix with an AR or a Glock.

As way of an example I lived in NYC for 20 years and in some pretty rough places. I was once threatened by a drug dealer on my block, "I just got out for attempted murder man, I'd hate to have bubblegum someone up again, you feel me?" He asked me for money.

Yeah, I felt him. If I'd dealt with that by way of showing a gun or threatening him all I'd have done is escalate the situation. I sympathized with him and then did the smart thing - gave his mom some home baked cookies. After that I was "made" on the block. I turned an enemy into an ally and when bubblegum went down on the block I got a knock on the door to let me know I should park somewhere else that night.

But being smart isn't as cool as being a mall ninja.

Now I know this isn't popular but as a left leaning gun owner I'm sort of sick to death of right leaning nut jobs making the act of owning a gun an extreme and crazy thing. Just like the way the crazies have taken over the republican party and are driving it off a cliff right wing nut jobs and the NRA are going to be the ones who actually get draconian gun laws passed.

The harder and farther you push the culture to the right the smaller your numbers are going to be. It's a shame no one can see this. Personally I'd like to see hunting make a comeback. There are countless hipsters and young people who would probably love to get into hunting as it would fit right in with the whole farm to table food movement. Is that happening? No. Are you losing numbers? Yes.

Look around people. You're all a bunch of middle aged white guys and your numbers in this country are shrinking. You should be promoting hunting, gun safety, target shooting and all the great non threatening things you can do with a gun.

But that won't happen - at least any time soon. Until we understand the real meaning of community - learning to get along and compromise with people we don't always agree with so as to be able to mutually support each other - nothing will change. I grew up in a small town where that ethos was in place and it made for a great community. Circling the wagons and waging hate on anyone you don't know or who doesn't look or act like you only serves to make you smaller, not stronger.

No gun is going to fix that.

Gregor

Well as someone that bemoans those with conservative points of view, those who support the NRA and those who, over the last 8 pages or so gave some very well thought out, very well rationalized reasons why they own and carry guns, you managed to pretty much insult almost everyone on this thread and many on this forum. You seem to think that YOUR point of view is the only correct one and anyone that doesn't fall into line with your idealistic view of the world is some kind of right-wing extremist mall ninja nut job.

I wonder, how can everyone come together as a community when people like you, who seem to want peace and understanding, approach it by belittling and insulting those with a different point of view from your own? Hypocrisy seems the best way to describe your post. Perhaps you should consider uncircling your own wagons and stop hating people whose views differ from your own. Maybe then, someone might be more interested in how you can bring peace in our time. There is plenty of hate, bigotry, fear and ignorance on ALL sides. Don't pretend that you sit on some high place where you see the light and the rest of us wallow in ignorance and fear.

 

[Ura-Ki]

And to go further then that, We are facing some real serious threats now that we have never had to face until now! Before these "events" happened, before the loss of reality among the masses, few of us ever carried, or had need to. We as a community have had to come to terms with this fact, the world around us isn't getting better! That's a fact! Before all these things started happening, the NRA WAS a safety group and promoted all sorts of good, but the reality of our future is not so nice a place, In case you missed it, the NRA still promotes these things you hold dear and they still stand for all of our rights, but you are a bit on the blind side if all you see is a sence of fear coming from them in order to sell membership and there brand! Owning a gun and choosing to carry it in public is a relative new concept to this "Civilized" society we find out selves in, and as such, we find our selves in some what uncharted territory, and so we come here to share ideas and information to help us, This Community, to make important decisions, and to share important ideas and opinions as our collective future is no longer a sure thing! We here are exercizing our GOD given rights of freedom and self determination, we are here to promote a safe environment and to explore different ideas that we can work with in in order to keep our selves safe and more importantly FREE! Hard times are close aboard, and there will be a time in the not so distant future where we will be faced with some very hard choices and what we do, how we respond both as individuals as well as collectively will be THE MOST IMPORTANT things we must face, and face them together we must, if we are to have any chance at all!

 

[sakurama]

"...Unrealistic, ignorance based fear"?

MS-13 doesn't exist?
Terrorists don't exist?
Crime doesn't exist?

And all we need to do is "compromise"?

You're an obvious troll too or maybe the same one with a different name.

Not a troll but just someone who likes guns but not the irrational culture that they live in.

MS-13 - I had to look that up so I guess that shows how relevant that is.

Terrorists? Sure drag that trope out. Where were you on 9/11? Watching your TV. I lived in NYC - blocks from the towers so just quit with that. You know who doesn't give a damn about terrorists - people that live in NYC. Again, heart disease, diabetes, the flu, and stroke are FAR more likely.

Crime? It just doesn't happen that an armed citizen saves the day. Sure the NRA cherry picks a story every month but if you get the magazine it should be pretty obvious that it's slim pickings. What's more likely is that a gun owner or a child of a gun owner kills themselves at far greater numbers than are "saving the day" but that's a more depressing column.

But I don't expect to change any minds. Every once in a while I feel like I should stand up and be counted as a politically center to left gun owner. Most of us are quiet because of the tiresome hate that is spooned out on a regular basis - we know without a doubt that we're not welcome. The fact that any opinion that's different is considered a "troll" is a pretty sad commentary.

Gregor

 

[DuneHopper]

Not a troll but just someone who likes guns but not the irrational culture that they live in.

MS-13 - I had to look that up so I guess that shows how relevant that is.

Terrorists? Sure drag that trope out. Where were you on 9/11? Watching your TV. I lived in NYC - blocks from the towers so just quit with that. You know who doesn't give a damn about terrorists - people that live in NYC. Again, heart disease, diabetes, the flu, and stroke are FAR more likely.

Crime? It just doesn't happen that an armed citizen saves the day. Sure the NRA cherry picks a story every month but if you get the magazine it should be pretty obvious that it's slim pickings. What's more likely is that a gun owner or a child of a gun owner kills themselves at far greater numbers than are "saving the day" but that's a more depressing column.

But I don't expect to change any minds. Every once in a while I feel like I should stand up and be counted as a politically center to left gun owner. Most of us are quiet because of the tiresome hate that is spooned out on a regular basis - we know without a doubt that we're not welcome. The fact that any opinion that's different is considered a "troll" is a pretty sad commentary.

Gregor

MS-13, lived in an area and watched this grow and replace the Hells Angels with power 4 times what they had.
If you have no idea who they are you really should not comment on them as its like not knowing who the mob was.

Crime, I saw more crime in my young years in LE, and its not what you see on tv or hear, its what you don't you should be worried about there is so much stuff average Joe knows nothing about. There are hidden places we could all start talking about some of us see and some worked at just because you were not exposed does not mean it does not exist.

Some live cushioned lives never being exposed and thats great, and have a one time event in your town ( 911 ) does not make anyone an expert on crime or terrorists . I lived thru 7 major earth quakes and it doesn't make me a geologist.

Its not hate you see, its called self survival unless you have been there day in day out for the majority of your lives then, you are spoon fed what the media wants you to know. I know many members here know exactly what is really out there first hand in person, i'm one of them.

 

[sakurama]

I wonder, how can everyone come together as a community when people like you, who seem to want peace and understanding, approach it by belittling and insulting those with a different point of view from your own? Hypocrisy seems the best way to describe your post. Perhaps you should consider uncircling your own wagons and stop hating people whose views differ from your own. Maybe then, someone might be more interested in how you can bring peace in our time. There is plenty of hate, bigotry, fear and ignorance on ALL sides. Don't pretend that you sit on some high place where you see the light and the rest of us wallow in ignorance and fear.

That's a fair criticism.

I saw all the ad hominem attacks on the OP and I suppose my ire is directed at those folks. The fact that a very reasonable question was asked by the OP and there's 8 pages of responses, some reasonable but many attacking him as a troll shows that we're not ready to have a discussion. I'd stick around for a debate but that's not likely to happen.

Where I find I can have the talks is in person at my range. People know I'm a serious shooter but they also know my political stance. I'm accepted in that "community" but the internet isn't exactly the place for reasonable discussions about guns.

Anyway your point is fair.

Gregor

 

[etrain16]

That's a fair criticism.

I saw all the ad hominem attacks on the OP and I suppose my ire is directed at those folks. The fact that a very reasonable question was asked by the OP and there's 8 pages of responses, some reasonable but many attacking him as a troll shows that we're not ready to have a discussion. I'd stick around for a debate but that's not likely to happen.

Where I find I can have the talks is in person at my range. People know I'm a serious shooter but they also know my political stance. I'm accepted in that "community" but the internet isn't exactly the place for reasonable discussions about guns.

Anyway your point is fair.

Gregor

I appreciate that. If you had read on through the posts, you would have seen one of mine where I went after those that were a bit too quick, in my opinion, to call 'troll' on the OP. Many here, in fact, I believe in this particular thread, most actually took the time to respond to the OP with some well-reasoned answers. Yes there are always a few that simply prefer to attack at first sight, but many here are also looking to help out a fellow gun owner.

Like in any group, there are good and bad, but I think on this forum, there are generally far more good than bad.

 

[Koda]

Not a troll but just someone who likes guns but not the irrational culture that they live in.

MS-13 - I had to look that up so I guess that shows how relevant that is.

Terrorists? Sure drag that trope out. Where were you on 9/11? Watching your TV. I lived in NYC - blocks from the towers so just quit with that. You know who doesn't give a damn about terrorists - people that live in NYC. Again, heart disease, diabetes, the flu, and stroke are FAR more likely.

Crime? It just doesn't happen that an armed citizen saves the day. Sure the NRA cherry picks a story every month but if you get the magazine it should be pretty obvious that it's slim pickings. What's more likely is that a gun owner or a child of a gun owner kills themselves at far greater numbers than are "saving the day" but that's a more depressing column.

But I don't expect to change any minds. Every once in a while I feel like I should stand up and be counted as a politically center to left gun owner. Most of us are quiet because of the tiresome hate that is spooned out on a regular basis - we know without a doubt that we're not welcome. The fact that any opinion that's different is considered a "troll" is a pretty sad commentary.

Gregor

interesting. First I dont think you are a troll for sharing a different opinion and I have no insults to sling, I will say I respect your participation in fact. But I am curious about your crime statistics you mentioned. Last I checked armed citizens do "save the day" way more than the negative gun accidents. Low end estimates are about 55,000 to 80,000 defensive gun uses per year. Just the other day armed citizens captured a kidnapping suspect and held him for authorities... so actually it does happen that armed citizens save the day.

You don't have to respond to this but those are just my observations in regards to armed citizens. I don't know what MS13 is either and although its possible we've had very few actual terrorist attacks, reality is the majority of discussion about armed citizens centers around the subject of crime. I think my points about armed citizens having a more significant role in responding to crime is valid.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Likes guns but not the irrational culture they live in? WTF is that supposed to mean, Splain that one for me! Now you pushed my TROLL button! You come here expecting to change any ones mind after posting confrontational bile and expect us to welcome you with open arms and a cherry coke? Where was I on 9/11? about 12 hours flight from Germany to the United States to help enforce a no fly zone so these cowards couldn't try any more of that chit! Crime does happen, I was in a store that was robbed at gun point and the kid behind the counter got shot because the bad guy was all cranked up on Adrenalin. and I was a 16 year old kid and a kid shouldn't have to worry about being armed or being killed because some thug wanted the cash! Shake out your head gear dude, wake up and smell the ashes of the happy little world you lived in, It's almost gone dude!