White Teen Ignores all Police Officer Commands, and then Dies

[decklin]

Tasers don't always work, this guy wasn't acting rationally which potentially could mean he's high, which would also cause a taser to not work.
When faced with a possible lethal threat a taser is not a good option.

If someone is trying to break in your house and possibly has a gun are you going for your pepper spray?!
Heck no, your spraying lead.

Cops do have multiple options, but so does the bad guy. He chose wrong.

Cops have stricter requirements for lethal force than Citizens do.
I don't have backup at my house.
As I said before there were two officers. Why didn't one use a Taser?

 

[decklin]

I don't see anyone saying the tat justifies the shooting; you're drawing that conclusion. Yes, it's a tragedy all around. Yes, I wish it happened differently/was handled differently, but I wasn't there; the shots while he was already down make sense technically, as he's still able to move his arms and continues digging in his pants, but it seems extreme to continue to shoot. There are protocols, techniques, and decision trees the officers are trained in, and under stress, they have to rely on them for better or worse. Maybe their training needs to be looked at; a lot of pd's are training for better mental health practices in stops, but that's a slow road to change under the best conditions.
There is a national disconnect about race and crime. Black kids get shot, it's first looked at as racial not criminal; white kids get shot, it's first a criminal or mental health issue, not racial. Both assumptions are bad for better understanding of these incidents.

When a civilian shoots someone, the gun is seen as the issue, not the person. When a cop shoots someone, people seem all too eager to judge negatively the cop's behavior, which I think is on the right track, holding the person accountable for their actions, not the tool in their hands, but it goes sideways because people don't see justice when cops are acquitted, rightly or wrongly. Most of the narratives in the media are reductionist in nature and oversimplified into black and white issues (literally and figuratively) when they are truly more complex and in shades of grey. But shades of grey don't work well in trying to whip up fear and hysteria, and for forming simplistic conclusions that politicians can use in their agendas/platforms.
It's the ultimate tragedy that the conversations are steered by irrational and purely emotive hyperbole instead of fact; critical thinking and facts though lead to a more informed and aware populace which is bad for the whole government scheme/scam.

"Lots of attitude in that picture, looks surly to me, etc."
These are the comments being posted on this thread.

 

[Ralgha]

He had a hand behind his back as he was advancing toward the police, who were, and had been, ordering him to keep his hands visible and to lay down. In addition, those police had guns aimed at him. There are only two basic explanations for someone behaving that way in that situation:

1. Mentally disturbed, whether that be an actual mental condition, or simply a temporary situation such as anger or grief.
2. They want to hurt you.

Now if you were a cop right now, knowing how many cops have been ambushed recently, are you going to assume #1 explains the guy advancing on you with a hidden hand despite your drawn guns and orders to the contrary, or are you going to think #2? Anybody who can honestly answer #1, well, you're a more noble and trusting man than I am.

 

[OutlawHoss]

"Lots of attitude in that picture, looks surly to me, etc."
These are the comments being posted on this thread.

Yeah, so? That is just speculation about his character that anyone would make in most contexts; there is no causal weight being given to the tattoo in regards to the reasons for shooting. Only you have said "It's amazing that people are using a Yamaha tattoo and a goofy picture to try to justify a shooting". Some people were also saying that he looks like a normal kid, into bikes and with an American flag on his truck. That could describe a bunch of folks here.

 

[clearconscience]

If they don't use the I thought he had a gun excuse you'll see more dead cops.

I'm sick of society getting more dangerous and more people using excuses to be POS's.
Maybe if more people get shot acting like aggressive idiots then less people will be the downfall of society.

These cops did nothing wrong. They protected themselves.

Most of you act just like the liberals. You have to wait until you get shot or stabbed before you defend yourself.

I will defend these cops just as I would hope someone would defend me if I was in this situation.

If I was with my kids and someone was acting like this. I wouldn't hesitate.

I want those cops to stop threats, any way they need to. Because the next time that threat comes it may be after menor mine.

Imm sick of this BLM crybaby society that refuses to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[x2ndxall]

This may become jumbled, I hope my point isn't lost.

While both sides handled the situation poorly, the LEOs need to be held to the higher standard. They are the ones being paid to protect the citizens. There is no question they should have handled it differently.
Three trained pros with weapons drawn, fingers on go, and they couldn't wait to see a weapon before taking a young man's life? That's ok? Really? You're ok with that level of competence from your public servants?
A lot of your tax money is spent on training them. How can you compare what you would have done to what they should have done? How much money is spent on training you each year?
There were three officers there. As asked by others, why couldn't they work together with one of them trying less lethal methods first? Seriously, this is a human life. A human life you're sworn to protect. If the less lethal didn't stop him there were still two guns on him, one of them a shotgun.

Were the kid's actions stupid? Of course they were. Did he want the cops to shoot him? Maybe he did, it kind of looks like it. Does that justify what they did? Absolutely not.
Before accusing me of being a cop hater or whatever else, let me point out that I almost always side with the LEOs. I always first put myself in their position. But when they're wrong, they're wrong. No way they couldn't have kept him alive. They are professionals. They are trained to handle such situations.
Those of you who tell yourselves that stupid deserves to die, do you really want people you don't know deciding whether you and/or your loved one is too stupid to live?

Slippery slopes. Be careful how far you're ok with letting them go before requiring some accountability.

 

[wired]

Most of you act just like the liberals. You have to wait until you get shot or stabbed before you defend yourself.

Nope. Just want to see a gun first. Guy has a gun and he pulls it out go ahead and shoot. Guy pulls a knife 20 feet away with two cops maybe try something different. Perhaps one cop shoots the guy with bean bag rounds out of a shot gun, tazer, pepper spray, tear gas...whatever while the other cop covers him. Nothing extraordinary . Just common sense police work that doesnt involve blowing away everyone that scares you.

As far as what you do in a stressful situation if you shoot an unarmed man I want you prosecuted. If the cops shoot unarmed men I want them prosecuted but more than that I want them fully trained to only use deadly force as the last resort.

If the cops want to be treated with respect as professionals then start acting like professionals and not a bunch of pussies who shoot at the slightest provocation.

 

[decklin]

You cannot say violent crime has been on the decline since the early '90's to justify gun ownership and argue against gun control in one thread, then in the next say it's more dangerous now to justify cops shooting unarmed people.
That's changing the narrative to suit your opinion.
Use facts and logic not speculation please.

 

[x2ndxall]

<broken link removed>

Looks like one of the more decent ones his age today. So he's making a funny face in a selfie, big deal. That face actually looks pretty harmless to me.

 

[Martini_Up]

I will defend these cops just as I would hope someone would defend me if I was in this situation.

Put in the exact same position and take off the badge and you're going away forever.

I just don't understand how the police have become so afraid of everyone. They seem to believe they're at war on the front line and every person they encounter is ready to kill them. They draw weapons on unarmed people because they're afraid. They shoot them for the same reason.

LE power comes from the "Consent of the governed" is something that needs to be remembered. And having terrified law enforcement is only going to make thing a lot worse. The People are beginning to show they no longer consent to this. Law enforcement becomes more afraid and often look and train like they're going to war.

This isn't going to end well until law enforcement changes their attitude and tactics and regain the consent of the governed.

 

[clearconscience]

By the time you see a gun you may already he dead.

Same reason there's the ol' 21 ft rule.

<broken link removed>

 

[Mike Johnson]

As a white person I really don't care, to bad, your a moron, next

 

[clearconscience]

They are at war.

There are a lot of people that have declared war on them especially of late.
Just like us they are in a time when the govt protects the criminals and lets them back on the streets and they are increasing less afraid of doing harm to an officer.

I've said it before, If you guys can do better then go ahead.
No takers? Weird. Well at least you have the ability to be internet quarterbacks and take hours, days to react to a situation they have less than seconds to react to.

Don't like it, then be the change. Sign up and show them how it's done. Just make sure you pay up your life insurance.

Go stroll through north portland or china town at midnight.

Better yet through Compton, S Chicago, or Detroit.
You wouldn't make it 10mins.


New reaction-time study addresses what's 'reasonable' in armed-suspect encounters (https://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3705348-New-reaction-time-study-addresses-whats-reasonable-in-armed-suspect-encounters/)

 

[Ralgha]

I don't understand where some of you are coming from. The kid was advancing with a hidden hand toward LOADED AND AIMED guns telling him to stop. Nobody with benevolent intentions does that. How could you possibly argue that it wasn't a justified shoot (the first two, the next two weren't, in my opinion)?

The only possible argument against shooting is that the kid might be mentally defective, but if he's not, and you don't shoot, then you're dead, game over.

 

[wired]

And if I shot an unarmed kid I'd should expect to get prosecuted and jailed for it. Its a job. You get paid to do it. If you can't handle the pressure don't take the job. Simple as that. If you shoot an unarmed man you should fully expect to go to jail.

 

[wired]

I don't understand where some of you are coming from. The kid was advancing with a hidden hand toward LOADED AND AIMED guns telling him to stop. Nobody with benevolent intentions does that. How could you possibly argue that it wasn't a justified shoot (the first two, the next two weren't, in my opinion)?

The only possible argument against shooting is that the kid might be mentally defective, but if he's not, and you don't shoot, then you're dead, game over.

Did they see a gun? If they had seen a gun , sure, no problem. Shoot away. In the old days they would have just planted a throwaway gun on the kid when no one was looking. In this case he may have been high or or just cocky but they did not see a gun , pee'd their pants and started shooting because someone didnt follow their orders. Whole segments of out population have turned against that sort of behavior. The chickens coming home to roost as it were.

 

[slimmer13]

And if I shot an unarmed kid I'd should expect to get prosecuted and jailed for it. Its a job. You get paid to do it. If you can't handle the pressure don't take the job. Simple as that. If you shoot an unarmed man you should fully expect to go to jail.

Oh bs, unarmed people get lawfully shot and killed all the time by civilians. Just recently in Spokane a drunk kid got himself smoked trying to get into the house next door from his. No charges.

If someone is advancing toward a bunch of cops, guns drawn, looking like he wants to fight, reaching for something, it is reasonable to assume he is an imminent threat.

The presence of a knife or a firearm is one of, but not the only deciding factor in determining if a person has the means, or intent to cause bodily harm where deadly force would be justified.

 

[wired]

Then deal with the repercussions of citizens voting from the rooftops . People are getting fed up with it and if tactics don't change its going to get worse.

 

[slimmer13]

We all have free will. We are free to make bad decisions but we are not free from the consequences. If you get drunk enough that you don't know what your own house looks like, you might die. If you try and race a train to a crossing, you might die. If you eat nothing but bacon, you might die, and if you charge a bunch of cops with their guns pointed at you, you might die.

There are bad cops, just like there are bad civilians, but I seriously doubt the vast majority of LEO want to shoot someone. They may be protected by sympathetic prosecutors and that may be a real problem but the psychological and emotional trauma, chance for civil litigation and possibility of having to essentially live in hiding is not something that a sane person would choose.

 

[Brutus57]

Sorry, I don't buy the "cops are at war" argument. Do certain cops work in more dangerous areas, Definitely. By that logic we could say we are at war with radical Islam here at home as civilians and folks could go tune up these radical hangouts, neighborhoods, mosks (yes I know how to spell it Snowden doesn't) because WE thought they were hatching the next 9/11 and they were wearing black and saying Allahu Ahkbar, etc. Take a guess what would happen if some concerned citizens did that.

Dollars to donuts more LEOs drop dead from heart attacks every day than are shot in this war.
Feed in to that "we're at war" syndrome in their basic LEO training before they are badged and you are putting trained killers on the street. Remember how police would chase BGs over 3 counties because they were speeding or failed to pull over for no insurance, etc. and innocent folks were getting killed. Cops decided to throttle back a little on that mentality.
I don't buy suicide by cop as being OK unless the person is armed or in a vehicle that can be used as a weapon. There are plenty of non lethal means as previously stated to render someone incapable of violence. Supporting the cops doesn't mean supporting the cops regardless of their actions. Why the big hurry to bring that traffic stop to a resolution, one way or another?

How about a calm voice, "Good day, Mr. Noble, we pulled you over because your tail pipe is dragging. Just put your wallet out the window so I can verify it? Dispatch reported a person with a gun? Is that you?.....and so on. Yelling instigates fight or flight and if a person thinks they did nothing wrong they are more likely to fight than flight.

Have your armed service decal on the back of your pick up or car? Now every time you get pulled over the LEO is going to consider you are "probly' one of them crazed vets" and he's at war because well, everyone says we are at war so we are, right? That mentality is just going to get more folks killed with the flimsiest of justifications.

Call this one what it was, after the first 2 rounds, it was execution by cop. Notice the COPS advanced on him when he was down. Was that necessary? Why not wait for the ambulance at that point? It was pretty obvious he wasn't going anywhere.

A speedy investigation and total transparency is the best way to get the truth in these sorts of things. Skepticism is not a bad thing.


Brutus Out