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...you got some examples of these brands that are cheap and high quality? I'd love to get my hands on a quality old side by side.
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Sorry I had it confused with another one. As I recall it was a double rifle (not sure if both barrels were same caliber). It was 9.5x47R or something like that. Out of production for a long time. I don't buy wall hangers otherwise that thing would be on my wall right now ha ha! The metalwork, design, detail and time to make it is crazy to me.
Me neither. Gotta be able to shoot it.
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Sauer pre war are some of the best shotguns ever made.
Another less expensive group are the post wwII GDR guns (east German). Brands are Merkel, simson, simson-Suhl, Suhl, Haenel, JP Sauer, thalman, Ernest thalman, JP Sauer and Sohn, and some others. They are all made in the same factory just get different names. The 1800's family shops in Suhl made the same guns with the same designs for decades. Post world war 2 split them into east and west German companies depending on their physical location. Cost is $200 for beat up to $600 for extremely nice/pristine. The GDR guns are well made with quality steel and use the unkillable greener crossbolt design. The method of case hardening however was chemical rather than the original method. Also the wood is not as high quality as the pre-war guns. But still great for $300-$500 or so.
Here's my 1913 Sauer 12 gauge. Feels like it just came out of the factory yesterday. This particular one was made by franz Adamy who was an apprentice with Sauer at the time and his brother Gebruder was in management there. They formed their own company in 1921 and made the best guns in the world for clients including kings and Ernest Hemingway. This gun though is just a standard Sauer nothing fancy liek the later Adamy guns.
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If you're considering a 9mm 1911, get a Hi-Power.. they actually work.
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If I was buying a 1911 it would be a Triarc Tri-11. I simply don't have that kind of cash floating around. lol. So for now I'll enjoy my $200 dollar Glock.
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My criteria is how much work it has that is not integral to the basic function.
A gun that is not reliable is crap. They are not suitable for work, but can still be a lot of fun in the right situation. This can be collectibles, weird guns that are just for pinking at the range, or even stuff you take to competition as a personal handicap. They may still be highly desirable to own and very expensive, such as certain historical examples, but no matter how you slice it they cannot be considered "premium."
Then you have duty guns. Basic, reliable and trustworthy. Price really is not a factor here, you just need to be able to count on it when you need it. You can definitely tier the duty guns, I doubt anyone would say a Hi-Point is equivalent to a M&P, but it would be difficult to argue that both will not satisfy the minimum level of utility necessary for a working gun.
High end stuff has a lot of extras. Fancy slide serrations for extra grip and "cool factor". Barrel porting. Forged receivers instead of billet. Basically anything you can do to a gun that is nice but not necessary. The more of that you have the higher up the "high end" tier list you go. A gun that only has one or two "high end" features may not pass the threshold for a truly "high end" gun. It is certainly higher end than a gun that does not have those features, but you need to hit a certain threshold for it to become "high end" itself, not just have one or two "high end" features. It is a sum totality kind of thing, not a specific checklist kind of thing.
This is how you get entire brands that are "high end," they simply do not make a model that does not have a ton of extra features when compared to cheaper equivalents. HK could make cheaper models that have the same basic functionality, but they choose to put in a ton of extra work into their guns unrelated to the base level functionality. They are "high end" and "premium" for this reason. (arguments about weather all that extra work is worth the cost are, of course, subjective).
Then you get things like brand dilution. Picking on HK again, it can be said that they have started producing guns that are basic, but still treating as premium based solely on branding. They are counting on the roll mark to confer premium status rather than actual high end features. If a brand does this enough they will eventually suffer a fall from grace in the public consciousness, and the brand will then become seen as a pretender.
This phenomena can be further compounded by features that were once though of as premium that became standard. Basic slide serrations are an example of this. Basically every gun now has them, so if you want to be special you have to go over the top with your serrations to get noticed. Pistol optic mounts are getting that way now, with more and more people starting to expect that base level models have a cutout from the factory. Eventually even the cheap brands will start including the feature as standard and then it will no longer be considered "premium".
Finally you have the phenomena of guns that need a ton of "premium" work just to function right. Many 1911 manufacturers have this problem. You have a base model gun that is so unreliable as to be considered junk tier, but with 100 hours of hand fitting to make it run right people suddenly consider it "high end". It certainly can be if the rest of the fit and finish match the custom work to the action. There are guns that have every last millimeter hand finished whether it needed it or not. Those can certainly be "premium" in every sense of the word. But I think a lot of people get caught up on the "hand fitted" part and miss the fact that just because a gun needed a lot of extra work to make it run correctly, when there are other example that run correctly out of the box, does not automatically make the gun "premium". The hand fitted action is just the manufacturer spending a ton of time in QA to fix their manufacturing screwup, not making the gun more premium. Sometimes all that hand fitting just raises the gun from junk tier to basic, and I refuse to pay extra just because you had to fix your problem.
Of course all this ignores the whole "'high end/premium' is a marketing term" and it is whatever the manufactures says it is (so long as they can find someone willing to buy it). This may ignore the larger consensus, but as long as they can find a niche place in the market with enough people willing to accept the premise they can have their "premium junk tier" and there is not a lot anyone can say against it. If the guns still sell for premium price because the manufacturer calls them premium, then I guess they are premium to someone.
A gun that is not reliable is crap. They are not suitable for work, but can still be a lot of fun in the right situation. This can be collectibles, weird guns that are just for pinking at the range, or even stuff you take to competition as a personal handicap. They may still be highly desirable to own and very expensive, such as certain historical examples, but no matter how you slice it they cannot be considered "premium."
Then you have duty guns. Basic, reliable and trustworthy. Price really is not a factor here, you just need to be able to count on it when you need it. You can definitely tier the duty guns, I doubt anyone would say a Hi-Point is equivalent to a M&P, but it would be difficult to argue that both will not satisfy the minimum level of utility necessary for a working gun.
High end stuff has a lot of extras. Fancy slide serrations for extra grip and "cool factor". Barrel porting. Forged receivers instead of billet. Basically anything you can do to a gun that is nice but not necessary. The more of that you have the higher up the "high end" tier list you go. A gun that only has one or two "high end" features may not pass the threshold for a truly "high end" gun. It is certainly higher end than a gun that does not have those features, but you need to hit a certain threshold for it to become "high end" itself, not just have one or two "high end" features. It is a sum totality kind of thing, not a specific checklist kind of thing.
This is how you get entire brands that are "high end," they simply do not make a model that does not have a ton of extra features when compared to cheaper equivalents. HK could make cheaper models that have the same basic functionality, but they choose to put in a ton of extra work into their guns unrelated to the base level functionality. They are "high end" and "premium" for this reason. (arguments about weather all that extra work is worth the cost are, of course, subjective).
Then you get things like brand dilution. Picking on HK again, it can be said that they have started producing guns that are basic, but still treating as premium based solely on branding. They are counting on the roll mark to confer premium status rather than actual high end features. If a brand does this enough they will eventually suffer a fall from grace in the public consciousness, and the brand will then become seen as a pretender.
This phenomena can be further compounded by features that were once though of as premium that became standard. Basic slide serrations are an example of this. Basically every gun now has them, so if you want to be special you have to go over the top with your serrations to get noticed. Pistol optic mounts are getting that way now, with more and more people starting to expect that base level models have a cutout from the factory. Eventually even the cheap brands will start including the feature as standard and then it will no longer be considered "premium".
Finally you have the phenomena of guns that need a ton of "premium" work just to function right. Many 1911 manufacturers have this problem. You have a base model gun that is so unreliable as to be considered junk tier, but with 100 hours of hand fitting to make it run right people suddenly consider it "high end". It certainly can be if the rest of the fit and finish match the custom work to the action. There are guns that have every last millimeter hand finished whether it needed it or not. Those can certainly be "premium" in every sense of the word. But I think a lot of people get caught up on the "hand fitted" part and miss the fact that just because a gun needed a lot of extra work to make it run correctly, when there are other example that run correctly out of the box, does not automatically make the gun "premium". The hand fitted action is just the manufacturer spending a ton of time in QA to fix their manufacturing screwup, not making the gun more premium. Sometimes all that hand fitting just raises the gun from junk tier to basic, and I refuse to pay extra just because you had to fix your problem.
Of course all this ignores the whole "'high end/premium' is a marketing term" and it is whatever the manufactures says it is (so long as they can find someone willing to buy it). This may ignore the larger consensus, but as long as they can find a niche place in the market with enough people willing to accept the premise they can have their "premium junk tier" and there is not a lot anyone can say against it. If the guns still sell for premium price because the manufacturer calls them premium, then I guess they are premium to someone.
I think high-end ultimately, is determined by you. Society tells us the group of 4 (Les baer, Ed brown, Wilson and Nighthawk) are high-end. Granted, there are some more exclusive brands made entirely by hand that might be considered more 'high-end', but i'm not familiar with them. the internet and gun groups are rife with statements of, if you dont have a (one of the 4) then your 1911 (or 2011) is crap. thats just not true. true, the fit and finish on my ed brown or nighthawk's are exceptional, they don't shoot any better than my dan wessons for half the price. And you really have to look hard twice, and have a great sense of feel, to determine differences between them. but, society does not put the dan wessons in the same group as the 'high end' models.
If you want 9mm in a 2011, and want 'high end' go Staccato. they are sinful to shoot.
If you want 9mm in a 2011, and want 'high end' go Staccato. they are sinful to shoot.
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If you can shoot it with your pinky finger extended? 
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It is one of those terms that is VERY subjective. A lot of course is the money the person has to spend. For some a gun that costs close to 1K may be all but out of reach and to them would be high end. While others spend that on a gun they planed to have as a gun to keep in the truck and such. I have brought this up many time when guns like High Point come up. While I do not own one if I was in a spot where cash was tight and I had no gun for home? I would of course be glad to have one of them. If someone is living hand to mouth and wants a gun that may be all they can really lay hands on right then. To them a LOT of my guns would seem "high end".
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Battle worn American flag cerakote.
Ridiculous amount of slide machining for no discernable reason.
Match grade parts ( barrel, trigger) on commodity frame/slide.
Ridiculous amount of slide machining for no discernable reason.
Match grade parts ( barrel, trigger) on commodity frame/slide.
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That's because "high quality" is subjective and differs from consumer to consumer.
What someone may say is high quality I may think wiping my a$$ would be a better use of the cash….. and vice versa.
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NOTHING says quality like pure injection molded Zamak steel!
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Winchester and browning are good examples of higher end nicer wood,metal, barrels are hand select
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The performance quality of some products (e.g., digital) can be measured objectively (audio equipment comes to mind), but that becomes more difficult for a product such as guns. It's in the eye of the beholder, of course. To a fella making $30,000 per year, a Ruger American may strike his fancy as "high quality." To the millionaire class (and up) perhaps nothing short of a Purdey, Boss, Woodward, etc. will be quality enough. I could say the highest quality gun I own is a Sako 85, but the millionaire class would laugh me out of the room for having a "poor man's" limited perspective. Or I could say the gun I built myself is the highest quality, and who can argue it when it's a one and done? Having been part of gun culture my entire life, my sense is that gun quality revolves around such factors as wood grade, accuracy, action smoothness, balance in hand, attention to detail, precision of fit, and similar. Then there is the aesthetic factor, and aesthetics tweak a person's emotional side thus having the potential to trump all other "rational" factors. Perhaps oddly, a gun's price can also seem to tweak a person's emotional side, and often I see a person buying a very expensive gun which, from my limited perspective, doesn't overly impress my quality sense.
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If I am thinking high-end I am envisioning something like a Holland and Holland double barrel rifle or shotgun. Where materials, craftsmanship, etc. are all near as good as possible. There is a saying in high-end vehicle restoration that 90% of the cost is in achieving the final 10% of detail. I think something similar applies here..
I agree that a person can purchase a totally reliable weapon that will preform the same purpose much cheaper. An exotic car may be nice, but most of the time a Toyota will perform the same task.
I agree that a person can purchase a totally reliable weapon that will preform the same purpose much cheaper. An exotic car may be nice, but most of the time a Toyota will perform the same task.
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I question why so many "high end" guns get listed after such little use.
Staccato…. cough….. cough. And of course there are many other "high end" brands that seem to show up pretty regularly in classifieds.
Buyers remorse or what?
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