what happened to all those Ukrainian Mosins and ammo

[slimmer13]

I've posted several time about behind armor trauma


If you take a hit of 7.62x54R to your chest while wearing level 4 body armor, would you still be out of the fight?

Yes. April 8th 2009 I was the back up 50 cal gunner in the lead gun truck on a convoy around Kohst Afghanistan. I was shot twice in the chest with a 7.62X54R chambered rifle. The shot was from approximately 400 yards away and on a downward angle. Our truck had taken a catastrophic IED hit and the primary gunner was badly injured from the blast so I jumped up in the gun.

The first round impacted the top right side of my plate. The feeling is like getting hit in the chest with the fastest fastball you can imagine. My vision grayed out and I slid/fell out of the gunners strap. I honestly thought I was dead. I laid there for a moment trying to catch my breath which was incredibly hard to do.

At this point the TC yelled "Gunner down!" and he began to unstrap and go through the drill. He began pulling me aside and trying to talk to me at the same time. I was starting to get a bit of my breath back and told him that I was good to go and just needed help getting back up in on the gun. (The inside of an RG is incredibly cramped at the best of times and with armor on and injured its even harder to move.) He helped pull me back up and on the gun. I remember getting about 10 more rounds off when the second round hit.

I again fell back into the truck. The second round had hit low right, about 2 inches from the bottom of the plate. At this point I could hardly move. My chest felt like someone was sitting on it and every time I tried to breath it felt like there was sandpaper in my chest.

Long story short, my self and the other gunner ended up getting medivac'ed out after the firefight concluded. I wound up with 4 cracked ribs a punctured right lung and my entire upper torso was bruised.

back in '69, I was part of Americas commitment to NATO, spend 3 years in Germany

That's crazy. In 09, you must have been pushing 60? And in combat? That's quite the career!

 

[rjmt]

That's crazy. In 09, you must have been pushing 60? And in combat? That's quite the career!

this was not me - got from a reference site
by '09, I was enjoying the good life

and a bullet hitting level 4 body armor will fall the the floor of the vehicle
a 7.62x54R will be .311 and in the weight range of 154 gn as apposed to a 7.62x39 at 123 gn
I've dug both out of my berm - not hard to tell the difference

 

[slimmer13]

this was not me - got from a reference site
by '09, I was enjoying the good life

and a bullet hitting level 4 body armor will fall the the floor of the vehicle
a 7.62x54R will be .311 and in the weight range of 154 gn as apposed to a 7.62x39 at 123 gn
I've dug both out of my berm - not hard to tell the difference

I see. I was slightly confused.

 

[rjmt]

I see. I was slightly confused.

my bad
according to my DD214, I joined in Oct 1968 and was discharged in1979 as an E6 with a RED Cross on my ID

 

[AK0perator47]

I would go and help out if they let us. Wouldn't expect anything in exchange for it! Not willing to discuss any further but put me in coach! Brandon is a beotch!

 

[rjmt]

how did I get interested in wound terminal ballistics?
in 1975-76 I worked with Dr Martin Faulkner at the Letterman Army Institute of Research at the Presidio
I was only his engineering technician, but I became fascinated with this research on wound terminal ballistics
I've collected every research paper I could on the subject since them
want to discuss the terminal ballistics of the .380 ACP sometime? let me know

 

[CamoDeafie]

Correction for @rjmt ; the military body armor plate is rated for "7.62 AP2" with soft armor behind. Its not standalone, and it may have a different test protocol from the NIJ 0101.06 test protocols.

My Level 4 NIJ certified standalone Large SAPI cut plate is heavier and thicker than the XL ESAPI plate that I also have, which requires soft armor behind.


By the way, the German ww2 7.92 tungsten cored Mauser ammo? It apparently defeats Level 4 NIJ plates.

 

[rjmt]

Correction for @rjmt ; the military body armor plate is rated for "7.62 AP2" with soft armor behind. Its not standalone, and it may have a different test protocol from the NIJ 0101.06 test protocols.

My Level 4 NIJ certified standalone Large SAPI cut plate is heavier and thicker than the XL ESAPI plate that I also have, which requires soft armor behind.


By the way, the German ww2 7.92 tungsten cored Mauser ammo? It apparently defeats Level 4 NIJ plates.

I'm not doubting penetration, I'm discussing behind armor trauma
do you have any test results you can send me on that for your specific Level 4 armor?
I'd like to review it and add it to my library
I've seen what a 7.62R mild steel core 174 gn will do to the cast iron block of a Dodge 318 engine at 100 yrds
I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of my Mosin Sniper with it's 28" bbl

 

[rjmt]

I'm not doubting penetration, I'm discussing behind armor trauma
do you have any test results you can send me on that for your specific Level 4 armor?
I'd like to review it and add it to my library
I've seen what a 7.62R mild steel core 174 gn will do to the cast iron block of a Dodge 318 engine at 100 yrds
I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of my Mosin Sniper with it's 28" bbl

another question - is this level 4 armor with soft armor behind it for mobile field use, or like in the article, is it for mounted troops in vehicles?
how mobile are you wearing this armor?
the soldier in my article admitted he only wore this armor in the up armored HMMVEE

the Marines admitted a squad member with an M249 couldn't keep up with a mobile squad, that's why the Marines switched to the M27
how mobile are you in your armor?

 

[BDA.45]

To little to late if you have to arm the populace when the enemy is already at the front door. Having a populace with a gun culture and laws that don't prohibit such makes

Got into this EXACT same conversation with a coworker today.....we're on the same page.....I don't wanna say it but....(BRING IT!!!)

 

[CamoDeafie]

I'm not doubting penetration, I'm discussing behind armor trauma
do you have any test results you can send me on that for your specific Level 4 armor?
I'd like to review it and add it to my library
I've seen what a 7.62R mild steel core 174 gn will do to the cast iron block of a Dodge 318 engine at 100 yrds
I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of my Mosin Sniper with it's 28" bbl

Sure, the specific armor model is HighCom 4S17M; and it is NIJ Certified Level 4 Stand Alone. Means it stops 7.62 AP2 ammo (30-06 steel core AP2), and using NIJ protocols which can be found on the NIJ website in PDF format, at a range of 15 Yards, onto a 12x12x12 block of modelers clay (they lay out specifics); after a 3 ft drop test onto concrete, and after cycling the plate in temps ranging from real cold to real hot, and a 30+ minute soak in salt water bath.

another question - is this level 4 armor with soft armor behind it for mobile field use, or like in the article, is it for mounted troops in vehicles?
how mobile are you wearing this armor?
the soldier in my article admitted he only wore this armor in the up armored HMMVEE

the Marines admitted a squad member with an M249 couldn't keep up with a mobile squad, that's why the Marines switched to the M27
how mobile are you in your armor?

I don't know. The label on the ESAPI only says 7.62 AP2 protection with soft armor behind. It is the standard ESAPI issue plate that goes into the armor vests for general infantry (IBA, CIRAS, SPC, IOTVs, etc). The turtle suits worn by vehicle crewmen is the same basic platform plus shoulder armor (DAPS), neck guards, and dick flap. Usually they also include ESAPI side plates.

 

[rjmt]

Sure, the specific armor model is HighCom 4S17M; and it is NIJ Certified Level 4 Stand Alone. Means it stops 7.62 AP2 ammo (30-06 steel core AP2), and using NIJ protocols which can be found on the NIJ website in PDF format, at a range of 15 Yards, onto a 12x12x12 block of modelers clay (they lay out specifics); after a 3 ft drop test onto concrete, and after cycling the plate in temps ranging from real cold to real hot, and a 30+ minute soak in salt water bath.

I don't know. The label on the ESAPI only says 7.62 AP2 protection with soft armor behind. It is the standard ESAPI issue plate that goes into the armor vests for general infantry (IBA, CIRAS, SPC, IOTVs, etc). The turtle suits worn by vehicle crewmen is the same basic platform plus shoulder armor (DAPS), neck guards, and dick flap. Usually they also include ESAPI side

so, your talking vehicle crewmen , not mobile infantry?
just clarifying
and, again penetration protection and behind armor trauma is not the same
it's not going to penetrate you skin, but it will break your ribs, collapse your lungs and rupture your heart or liver
I will say the same of a .308 out of a Rem 700, not just 54R

 

[rjmt]

so, your talking vehicle crewmen , not mobile infantry?
just clarifying
and, again penetration protection and behind armor trauma is not the same
it's not going to penetrate you skin, but it will break your ribs, collapse your lungs and rupture your heart or liver
I will say the same of a .308 out of a Rem 700, not just 54R

View attachment 1139430

I downloaded the NJI specs
naa - a 7.62R 174 gm mild steel core round is going to break your ribs and collapse your heart behind your armor plate at 200 yrds

 

[CamoDeafie]

so, your talking vehicle crewmen , not mobile infantry?
just clarifying
and, again penetration protection and behind armor trauma is not the same
it's not going to penetrate you skin, but it will break your ribs, collapse your lungs and rupture your heart or liver
I will say the same of a .308 out of a Rem 700, not just 54R

View attachment 1139430

I don't know. All I know is that the ESAPI is the standard issue hard plate for everyone in the Army/Marines, from ground foot infantry to the vehicle crewmen. The only differences is how much more soft armor parts the vehicle crewmen can get versus the ground infantry. Which is why "Scalable" is a thing and why modular armor pieces are a thing. There's the EOD suits which are much different.

The NIJ also tests for Back Face Deformation (BFD), the reason for the clay block behind the armor. A BFD measurement of over 45mm is a fail. Such a big dent will hurt, yes. But the current protocol only measures against 30-06 AP2 steel core ammo for Level 4, M80 ball 7.62x51 FMJ for Level 3, and specific calibers for 3A soft or hard, and 2A. Level 2 is obsolete and not tested.

Again, the tests are at 15 yards which is practically muzzle velocity/ point blank.

For the military testing protocol, I do not know if they use NIJ test protocols, or if they have their own classified protocols.

 

[rjmt]

I don't know. All I know is that the ESAPI is the standard issue hard plate for everyone in the Army/Marines, from ground foot infantry to the vehicle crewmen. The only differences is how much more soft armor parts the vehicle crewmen can get versus the ground infantry. Which is why "Scalable" is a thing and why modular armor pieces are a thing. There's the EOD suits which are much different.

The NIJ also tests for Back Face Deformation (BFD), the reason for the clay block behind the armor. A BFD measurement of over 45mm is a fail. Such a big dent will hurt, yes. But the current protocol only measures against 30-06 AP2 steel core ammo for Level 4, M80 ball 7.62x51 FMJ for Level 3, and specific calibers for 3A soft or hard, and 2A. Level 2 is obsolete and not tested.

Again, the tests are at 15 yards which is practically muzzle velocity/ point blank.

For the military testing protocol, I do not know if they use NIJ test protocols, or if they have their own classified protocols.

back face deformation is a small area trauma indicator
behind armor trauma is a large area trauma result
these manufactures are selecting an evaluation that does not show real combat trauma
combat trauma in Afghanistan and Iraq display different results

 

[CamoDeafie]

back face deformation is a small area trauma indicator
behind armor trauma is a large area trauma result
these manufactures are selecting an evaluation that does not show real combat trauma
combat trauma in Afghanistan and Iraq display different results

All the NIJ certified companies have to follow, are the NIJ protocols which is available, used, and seems to be proven (and used by the police forces across the US). What the DOD/Pentagon uses for their own research/ development of body armor, is not publicly available as far as i know, and only available to very few companies (Ceradyne for one; who made the surplus ESAPI plates I have).

Are you seriously saying a 7.62x54R steel core at 200 yards is more dangerous than a .30-06 AP2 steel core at 15 yards? The physics doesn't quite work out here

 

[rjmt]

All the NIJ certified companies have to follow, are the NIJ protocols which is available, used, and seems to be proven (and used by the police forces across the US). What the DOD/Pentagon uses for their own research/ development of body armor, is not publicly available as far as i know, and only available to very few companies (Ceradyne for one; who made the surplus ESAPI plates I have).

Are you seriously saying a 7.62x54R steel core at 200 yards is more dangerous than a .30-06 AP2 steel core at 15 yards? The physics doesn't quite work out here

I'm waiting for a medical report on behind armor trauma
have not seen a link to that yet
if you have faith in your armor - go for it
as for me - I would not want to be on the receiving end of 54R, M118LR NATO or even my 7.92 Mauser

 

[CamoDeafie]

I'm waiting for a medical report on behind armor trauma
have not seen a link to that yet
if you have faith in your armor - go for it
as for me - I would not want to be on the receiving end of 54R, M118LR NATO or even my 7.92 Mauser

Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of any of those! again, I don't know if the surplus ESAPI with 3A soft armor protects more than the NIJ level 4 stand alone plates, but just based on the materials used for both the ESAPI and the Level 4 armor (ceramics), I'd have to say they may be on par with each other given that the ESAPI is thinner and lighter but needs 3A armor for full rating. I have also a set of rather old In Conjunction Plates that are NIJ 0101.04 rated Level 3/ UK rated 7.62x51M80 + SS109 (aka M855 original 62gr green tip 5.5) but they require Level 3A soft armor for the full rating, and they are much lighter and thinner than even the ESAPI plates.

 

[po18guy]

There is a decades old saying in Ukraine:

Q: "Why don't Ukrainians water their flowers?"
A: "They don't want their (buried) rifles to rust."

We are perhaps going to witness the next "White death" Mosin-Nagant sniper.

Who Was Simo Häyhä, The Deadliest Sniper in History? | HistoryExtra

With at least 505 confirmed kills, Simo Häyhä has been labelled the deadliest sniper in history. Read about the Finnish marksman and how he achieved his nickname 'White Death'

www.historyextra.com

 

[rjmt]

[

We are perhaps going to witness the next "White death" Mosin-Nagant sniper.

Who Was Simo Häyhä, The Deadliest Sniper in History? | HistoryExtra

With at least 505 confirmed kills, Simo Häyhä has been labelled the deadliest sniper in history. Read about the Finnish marksman and how he achieved his nickname 'White Death'

www.historyextra.com

Yup, have one of those also, Finn M28