Was this a justified shooting in Vida Monday Night?

[Howard1955]

Well, it appears that the guy was actually stealing valuable stuff from his property, hence the 1st degree burglary charge.

The other point that I should bring up is that Vida is a tiny unincorporated town, with only a little over 1,000 people living in the entire zip code, and no police department. Since the Lane County Sheriff had to cut back on its rural patrols, it can now take 30 minutes or more for law enforcement to be able to respond to a 911 call from Vida.

People living in such small rural communities face a different problem when it comes to defending their homes, compared to those of us that live inside a substantial city. The only government building in Vida is their post office.

Here is a photo from Google Maps, showing the view that you see when you enter Vida from the west. You will see the tiny Post Office on the immediate right with its American flag, with the town's only market right next to it. A bit further to the right down the road, you will see the town's only gas station.

And a little further yet down the road on the left, you see a few parked cars. They are parked at the only place in town to eat: The Vida Cafe.

That is it. This is the entire town of Vida.

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Not long ago, the sheriff here in Polk County was pushing for more funds to hire more deputies. I occasionally got email from the sheriffs office that would say "Due to budget cuts, there will be no patrols in your area between the hours of"...

And that's when I got serious about being able to protect wife and homestead. Before that, I really never gave it much thought.

Since then, I've learned quite a bit - including the well known nugget "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

They've since been able to hire more deputies. But living "out in the boonies" definitely gives us a different mindset than folks who live in town.

 

[No_Regerts]

In my county, we have meetings every month with representatives from each agency. Property crimes alone occur at an exponentially higher rate in the areas patrolled by the Sheriff because respinse times are slow and there aren't as many eyes on each home like you'd have in a subdivision.

 

[woody06]

So what's the answer to the legal question? It looks to me that the homeowner could reasonably fear for his life so his actions were justified but I'm not a lawyer or a judge. How will this play out?

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Well....I would like to say something as well reasoned and of a noble and sensible nature as, oh, say, Andy. But, it would be colored by the tininess of the rats rump that I give about the fate of the evil doer!

 

[Who The F R U]

I would have called the Cops then tried to observe what he was doing. It is frustrating not to be able to protect what you've worked hard to earn...

I would have called 911.
After he killed himself !!, by attacking me / us with a kitchen knife that he stole from my home.
I'm responsible for the kid's safety in the house and i'm not putting up with that BS.
Never come empty handed to a gun fight.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

The homeowner felt himself struck in the leg and turned and fired without identifying his target. Did I get that right? Hmmm.
On the one hand that's SOP for a patrol in Vietnam circa 1967,
not so much for our litigious part of the world.

Pardon me while I get some Joe, settle into my armchair, and ponder and pontificate on what I would have done.

 

[Juggernaut]

Playing devils advocate here, remember Oregon's 'duty to retreat'. First thing some scumbag anti 2a district attorney is going to ask is why he left a place of safety, and the second thing will be why he armed himself before seeking out a confrontation, thereby demonstrating the homeowner is a bloodthirsty gun nut with a desire to commit murder.

Not saying its right, but we do not live in a time or place where a man can defend his life and property without the fear of prosecution.

This poor bastards future hangs on how the responding leos write this up. It is a good sign that he wasn't immediately charged but no guarantee that the DA won't seek charges.

First rule of defending your family and property is.... you have to be present, which is hard to do from an 8x8 concrete box in umatilla.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

We have no "stand your ground" law here, true, but...
There is no "duty to retreat" under Oregon law.
That's a California thing.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Playing devils advocate here, remember Oregon's 'duty to retreat'. First thing some scumbag anti 2a district attorney is going to ask is why he left a place of safety,

That is the first thing I asked .... And I am not some "scumbag ant 2a district attorney..."

Note to all ... I also am not saying that you do not have a right or a need to defend yourself or property.
Just that I would not leave my "place of safety" to try to stop and perhaps shoot someone for stealing my stuff.

What you may do ... where you live and coming from your background and life experiences is your business.
As long as it is legal where you live and you can live with your actions....that is.

For what it is worth ...
I have indeed left my place of safety and gone out to hunt those who would do me harm.
It was not fun nor exciting.... I do not want do this ever again.
I can live with my actions and am comfortable knowing that I have the ability and willingness to do this again.
But not over items that I own...
Andy

 

[Juggernaut]

We have no "stand your ground" law here, true, but...
There is no "duty to retreat" under Oregon law.
That's a California thing.

Not looking to get into this too deeply so I'll just say I misspoke, you are correct the oregon supremes did agree that duty to retreat as such is not within the statutes.

I was raised in the backwoods of Oregon not far from Vida in fact, where calling law enforcement for help was a joke. So these days, now that I've been turned into a domesticated suburban dweller I use that term as a reminder to keep myself in check whenever the impulse to handle things the old way crops up.

Cheers, and have a safe Sunday.

 

[etrain16]

Interesting discussion and some good points have been presented. I didn't click the link, so I'm responding based on what folks have already stated about the incident.

First thing I would say is, the fact that this is isolated rural, without readily available LE, things will play out differently than highly populated urban settings. Where I live, I wouldn't be clearing my property if I thought someone was out there, there is no need and only presents a greater threat to myself. If I can retreat into my home, where I will be armed, I will stay there and wait for the police to get the bad guy off my property. If he were trying to come after me, in my home, the game changes and deadly force is on the table. I don't think a DA in more urban areas will play kindly with folks that go chasing after trouble when they could have stayed in their home - and that line of your home is the line not to be crossed.

But in that rural setting, what choice do you have? Stay in your home for hours while someone remains on your property? Someone who may be a threat to you and your family? At that point, aren't you in some ways being held hostage? Can you safely leave your home without fear of being attacked? If the police can't come, does the boundary extend further out, away from your home, because now you can't freely move about your own property? I don't think deadly force is appropriate for property crime/theft, so what do you do here? How long should someone have to wait for police before they can act for their own safety? I think that a rural DA would know well enough to take that different circumstance into account.

Since I wasn't there, I can't say if it was appropriate for the homeowner to leave his house to see if the guy was gone. I would rather not do that myself, but I know I can have LE here in a matter of minutes. So how can I fault a guy that is trying to protect his family from further threat? At that point, you pretty much become your own LE, which a number of folks have alluded to in their comments here.

In the end, I do get damn sick and tired of homeowners being considered the criminal when some scumf*ck decides to invade their property and their home. Personally, I think we need to have our right to defend ourselves anywhere on our property, any time we feel we are in danger for our lives, and that we shouldn't have to consult some damn law book before we can decide if we have a right to check our own property to see if we're safe. If you're stupid enough to invade someone's property/home and you're stupid enough to do it with a deadly weapon, such as a slingshot, you've lost any rights you had before you engaged in that activity. How we've come to a place in society where we give more rights to the criminal than to the victim is just beyond me.

If they were to file charges against the homeowner and I was on that jury, I darn well would be siding with him.

 

[Mikej]

I think that a rural DA would know well enough to take that different circumstance into account.

It's Lane County and Yoogeen is the county seat.....Is the DA rural? Or is he down there in the Yoogeen courthouse? It could be a terrible time coming for dude.

 

[etrain16]

It's Lane County and Yoogeen is the county seat.....Is the DA rural? Or is he down there in the Yoogeen courthouse? It could be a terrible time coming for dude.

Yeah, hard to say down there. There are still good folks that still believe in freedom and liberty down there, not sure if that's true for the DA.

 

[11Charlie]

Interesting discussion and some good points have been presented. I didn't click the link, so I'm responding based on what folks have already stated about the incident.

First thing I would say is, the fact that this is isolated rural, without readily available LE, things will play out differently than highly populated urban settings. Where I live, I wouldn't be clearing my property if I thought someone was out there, there is no need and only presents a greater threat to myself. If I can retreat into my home, where I will be armed, I will stay there and wait for the police to get the bad guy off my property. If he were trying to come after me, in my home, the game changes and deadly force is on the table. I don't think a DA in more urban areas will play kindly with folks that go chasing after trouble when they could have stayed in their home - and that line of your home is the line not to be crossed.

But in that rural setting, what choice do you have? Stay in your home for hours while someone remains on your property? Someone who may be a threat to you and your family? At that point, aren't you in some ways being held hostage? Can you safely leave your home without fear of being attacked? If the police can't come, does the boundary extend further out, away from your home, because now you can't freely move about your own property? I don't think deadly force is appropriate for property crime/theft, so what do you do here? How long should someone have to wait for police before they can act for their own safety? I think that a rural DA would know well enough to take that different circumstance into account.

Since I wasn't there, I can't say if it was appropriate for the homeowner to leave his house to see if the guy was gone. I would rather not do that myself, but I know I can have LE here in a matter of minutes. So how can I fault a guy that is trying to protect his family from further threat? At that point, you pretty much become your own LE, which a number of folks have alluded to in their comments here.

In the end, I do get damn sick and tired of homeowners being considered the criminal when some scumf*ck decides to invade their property and their home. Personally, I think we need to have our right to defend ourselves anywhere on our property, any time we feel we are in danger for our lives, and that we shouldn't have to consult some damn law book before we can decide if we have a right to check our own property to see if we're safe. If you're stupid enough to invade someone's property/home and you're stupid enough to do it with a deadly weapon, such as a slingshot, you've lost any rights you had before you engaged in that activity. How we've come to a place in society where we give more rights to the criminal than to the victim is just beyond me.

If they were to file charges against the homeowner and I was on that jury, I darn well would be siding with the him.

As usual etrain

 

[JRuby]

This strikes home. I live where there are no street lights. There have been many nights the dogs have lit off barking in such a method to alarm my wife and myself. I have been known to go out around my property armed. I do not want to shoot or hurt anyone but if someone was to strike me with a rock I would respond. I support the home owner on this and feel he was within his rights.

 

[PiratePast40]

According to the article, the guy showed up uninvited and then refused to leave when asked to do so. Sounds like the homeowner had grounds to believe that the intruder, at the very least, was unfriendly. Normally, I would think that going outside and looking for someone sounds like looking for trouble. But in this case, assuming the visitor had a vehicle, the vehicle was still there and the homeowner had reasonable cause to believe that the other guy wished him harm.

Not sure if I would have gone outside looking for trouble with the possibility of being ambushed, but the homeowner did so and was probably justified in shooting in self defense.

 

[U8395279]

It's Lane County and Yoogeen is the county seat.....Is the DA rural? Or is he down there in the Yoogeen courthouse? It could be a terrible time coming for dude.

The current Lane County DA, Patty Perlow, was handpicked by our beloved Governor Kate Brown, and appointed to her office a year and a half ago after the prior DA up and quit, after expressing frustration and dissatisfaction with the job for a couple of years. That former DA, Alex Gardner, kept applying for other jobs elsewhere, until he was eventually hired has the new head of the Forensics Division at the Oregon State Police Department.

Patty Perlow is a very active liberal within the Democratic Party, was a strong supporter of Bernie Sanders for President last year, and is a graduate of the School of Law at the University of Oregon in Eugene. She has lived in Eugene most of her life. When she ran for actual election to office last year, both the state and local county Democratic Party organizations strongly endorsed her.

Perlow is currently prosecuting Edgar Rodriquez of Eugene, OR. That was the case reported on this website a few months ago where an Army veteran called 911 to report a case of domestic battery involving a couple who were guests at his apartment, only to be gunned down and very nearly killed by the responding officers when they saw that he had a handgun in his hand when they arrived. That was a case widely discussed here on this website, and Rodriquez himself even posted in that discussion here, if folks here remember.

I know that many people participating in that discussion felt that her decision to prosecute Rodriquez was a miscarriage of justice.

She appears to be another liberal progressive feminist. Eventually, I guess that all levels of government in Oregon will be run by such folks.

 

[11Charlie]

The current Lane County DA, Patty Perlow, was handpicked by our beloved Governor Kate Brown, and appointed to her office a year and a half ago after the prior DA up and quit, after expressing frustration and dissatisfaction with the job for a couple of years. That former DA, Alex Gardner, kept applying for other jobs elsewhere, until he was eventually hired has the new head of the Forensics Division at the Oregon State Police Department.

Patty Perlow is a very active liberal within the Democratic Party, was a strong supporter of Bernie Sanders for President last year, and is a graduate of the School of Law at the University of Oregon in Eugene. She has lived in Eugene most of her life. When she ran for actual election to office last year, both the state and local county Democratic Party organizations strongly endorsed her.

Perlow is currently prosecuting Edgar Rodriquez of Eugene, OR. That was the case reported on this website a few months ago where an Army veteran called 911 to report a case of domestic battery involving a couple who were guests at his apartment, only to be gunned down and very nearly killed by the responding officers when they saw that he had a handgun in his hand when they arrived. That was a case widely discussed here on this website, and Rodriquez himself even posted in that discussion here, if folks here remember.

I know that many people participating in that discussion felt that the decision to prosecute Rodriquez was a miscarriage of justice.


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Hopefully no charges are brought up on the home owner. If they are it may not be good for him with that information.

 

[Mister Bisley]

etrain said..."If you're stupid enough to invade someone's property/home and you're stupid enough to do it with a deadly weapon, such as a slingshot, you've lost any rights you had before you engaged in that activity. How we've come to a place in society where we give more rights to the criminal than to the victim is just beyond me."

Just wanted to touch on this part of his excellent posting...

I'm no lawyer, but the criminal had premeditated thoughts about stealing and possibly defending his life(carrying a weapon), as was the case after being caught on private property. This just seems so absurd to me that the gentleman/home owner would even be considered for criminal charges. We see all the time how "premediatation" works against people in the courtroom, hopefully it works in this case.

I can tell you one thing, it's most likely not the trespassers first time engaging in this type of criminal activity, nor will it be the last. And as I said before, It just makes me irate that a law abiding, land owning, tax paying citizen, can have his life be jeopardized and possibly lose his rights, by someone that probably has a history of this type of behavior. People like this are truly a dreg on society.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Great ^^^^^Post^^^^^ Mister Bisley, nailed a number of very important points!
I think we all agree, our culture has given away OUR rights, and Given them to those who would do wrong upon us! My self, I do not think I would have gone back out side armed and confronted the bad guy, but I wasn't there, and I do not know if the bad guy was doing more bad while still on the property, potentially elevating the threat level against the home owner doing what ever he might have been doing! Just some thoughts

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