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The sheep are in denial

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by Burnhaven, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Burnhaven

    Burnhaven Ferndale Member

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    I've been following and commenting on a blog article about concealed carry in church. ( http://holysoup.com/2015/12/15/terror-tension-guns-in-church/ )
    In the comments section we've been going round and round and one guy posted this article, which points out how people just don't want to admit that we need to protect ourselves.

    http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html
    "If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined yourself as an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
    Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. "
     
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  2. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    When I think of sheep?

    Well............... It gets fuzzy. :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
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  3. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    There are sheep, sheepdogs, and guys from Montanao_O
     
  4. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    People are more like Lemmings than sheep.

    No real leader. Just over the cliff we go! :D
     
  5. USMC-03

    USMC-03 Moscow on the Willamette (i.e. Portland, Oregon) Well-Known Member

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    Please allow me to challenge your position.

    In the context of the family or perhaps tribe, I agree with the shepherd concept. However, when considering society at large, the idea of a shepherd translates to some form of a monarch or dictator, at least in my mind. As a free man, a trader as described by Ayn Rand, I accepted no king or tyrant over me. We are all part of the flock and equals, even if the role of a sheep is not one we accept.
     
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  6. Burnhaven

    Burnhaven Ferndale Member

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    I guess the author was just keeping things in the animal world for his story. In the comments on the holysoup blog article, there was a lot of denial and the usual "more guns will just lead to more death." That and no response when I asked people what they'd do if their family was being attacked: pray, call the police, pick up a baseball bat, or start shooting.
     
  7. USMC-03

    USMC-03 Moscow on the Willamette (i.e. Portland, Oregon) Well-Known Member

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    We're on the same page and just differ in semantics perhaps. Although semantics can be crucial at times...
     
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  8. PaulB47

    PaulB47 Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    Humans are not sheep. The utility of analogies goes only so far...
     
  9. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    All we like sheep have gone astray...:)


    "As terror attacks continue abroad and closer to home, are Christian churches seen as a vulnerable soft targets?”

    Anyone thinking that is the way it is at my Church will be sorely mistaken. There are quite a few well armed sheepdogs in every service....just sayin'
     
  10. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Not a predator
    Not a predatee
    Not a shepherd
    By mere presence, deter predators
    Both scare and comfort schizo sheep
    Perturb shepherds
     
  11. albin25

    albin25 Lewiston Idaho Well-Known Member

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    A watchful shepherd is able to keep his sheep from falling into de Nile!
    cac8130ce66bce237e0f6a7067001365.jpg
    -YAHOO NEWS- An Egyptian shepherd watches his sheep drink water from the Nile river in Cairo, Egypt, Aug. 11, 2015
     
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  12. CoastRange57

    CoastRange57 Western Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    This way more true and prevalent than you might think. My banker is head usher at his church and there are several armed people in his group. They run what if scenarios in trainings and work at moving the shooters into tactical positions. It is a smaller "mega" church with probably 300 people at services, they have radios, spotters / watchers. Not a soft target.

    My son's church has several armed people in each service. Him, his wife and 3 others, 1 a police captain. They too have some plans, they all sit in different locations, have trained on cross fire and collateral risks. They are peace loving people, but sheep dogs through and through. It will not end well for anybody harming that flock.
     
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  13. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Is that the one where the loin lies down with the lamb? dooderotomy 415 if I'm not mistaken
     
  14. Hook686

    Hook686 Northern California Active Member

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    I think it does nothing positive to berate another person's illusion, while promoting your illusion as real. All that results is someone who will dig their heels in deeper in opposition to you. My personal opinion: It strikes me that those you label sheep are afraid, they recognize there is evil in the world, but are not convinced that you, the self proclaimed sheepdog, are not part of it. You are afraid of the evil you judge to be in the world (note not everybody judges the evil the same), believe you can protect yourself from what you see as evil, if you have sufficient armament, and promote loving the sheep as your justification for arming yourself.

    As I said my personal opinion. Why do you put down other people that simply deal with their fear in a different way? Might it not prove more productive to learn their fears and help them resolve those fears?
     
  15. CoastRange57

    CoastRange57 Western Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I recognize that you clearly state that is your personal opinion, and what I say is my opinion. I am not one who says your position is wrong and mine is right, with no possible middle ground.

    I am not afraid of the evil in the world. I am well aware of it and believe that evil needs to be dealt with in the proper way. I can protect myself from as much as possible with a combination of skill, knowledge and tools.

    Now loving the sheep has not a damn thing to do with my decision to arm myself, there has to be no justification for that to myself or anybody else. I have seen a lot of evil, and see more all the time in varying levels. My decision to arm myself came many years ago after seeing people victimized by evil people. I decided I would never allow myself to be a victim, nor allow that to happen to others if within the power of my situation.

    Evil must be met with a greater force to overcome. A persons moral compass should be very clear about that. Evil takes on many forms, some not clear. There are a much smaller number of people that are capable of dealing with evil, than there is people that are subject to evil deeds. That makes it a tough situation.
     
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  16. Burnhaven

    Burnhaven Ferndale Member

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    I have no illusions about my capabilities, having never been under fire or shot at a human being. The thing that would bother me the most is the situation where the police are minutes away, the bad guy has lots of ammo, and people are being shot one after another with no way to protect themselves. We seem to be seeing more of these and who wants to run at the guy bare-handed? The people on that flight in 2001 had to charge guys armed with box-cutters.

    When I carry, and I'm trying to do it more often, it is to protect my loved ones, and secondarily, myself. What is really hard to understand is hating guns, even when presented with a scenario where a bad guy is slashing or shooting your family. It's a personal choice so one could opt for a baseball bat or bear spray. So perhaps it isn't that many people are in denial about their being evil in the world, they just think it won't happen to them, or believe that less lethal tools will do the job without having to worry about their kids shooting each other.
     
  17. tkdguy

    tkdguy Portland, Oregon Silver Supporter Silver Supporter

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    The sheep do not have any spine. There are wolves out there that the sheep never recognize.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2015
  18. PaulB47

    PaulB47 Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    It's all too easy to look down on other people. But it is not helpful.

    We are talking about low probability events. The one time I ran into a crime in my 65 years, I was not armed, and it turned out OK, and I don't know if it would have been any better (except for my subsequent state of mind) if I had been armed. Now, recognizing that, does it make sense for me to carry all the time, even in my house? People can reasonably say, "No, I wouldn't do that."

    There is reality. And then there is what we have in our minds, which is a very poor model of reality. And each of us has a different model. It's a wonder we can get along as it is. :)
     
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  19. Burnhaven

    Burnhaven Ferndale Member

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    Somebody once said "reality is for those who can't cope with booze." Also, "there is no such thing as logic and reason, only the rationalization of our pre-conceived ideas. "
    I'm on a roll so "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

    or "I feel more like I do now than I did when I first joined this forum." That last one will break your mind.
     
  20. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    I took a CC class about 10 years ago to discover what it was all about.
    Didn't apply for the license. Seemed like a lot of extra work and responsibility at the time.
    The Clackamas Town Center Shooting happened (2012).
    Wife and I were planning to go shopping there later that evening.
    I re-evaluated my thinking.
    Took a CC class (couldn't find the old certificate) applied for and received the license.
    Dressed for the gun, read (and still reading) relevant periodicals on the Law.
    Serious CC is a lot of work and responsibility.
    Took an excellent CC class with range component from 540 Tactical, awaiting my Utah license.

    News and current events have cemented my conviction that CC is correct for me.
    Sandy Hook, Columbine HS, Recruiting stations, churches, vehicular mass homicides.
    May not ever encounter a deadly force event, may not survive if I do.

    I don't seem to to be congruent with Paul and Burn.

    I will do the best I can, with what I have.
     
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