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Tactical weapons education

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by sadiesassy, Apr 26, 2011.

  1. sadiesassy

    sadiesassy Prescott Active Member

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    I have a stupid question may be some people will give their opinion.

    After seeing ad after ad with people selling what I would call “Tactical/Military” rifles or gear – It made me wonder - Am I missing something.

    The obvious reasons for one of these are:
    Semiautomatic , Rugged, Great Varmit rifle - using the bipods, You can customize it, It is Their Bug Out rifle, Because you can get them.

    From what I am hearing is more are using for hunting.
    But the hunting argument seems only to be valid if it is your only gun. After all why pay twice as much for a much heavier rifle.

    MY questions are: ( Yes I have been doing searches on line)
    1. Why such a heavy interest in these guns? Obviously peaked my interest
    2. Obviously if you came through the military the nomenclature is clearer . IS there some documentation that clarifies what is what . I thought I understood what AK47, AR15 and AR 10 are. But then you have 10 000 variants like AK74, LAR8. etc.
    3. Are the shorter barrels accurate at 300 – 400 yds?
    4. How many actually hunt with them - I am assuming using the .308 cartridge.
    5. Seems like it is a huge customization market - every one is selling parts of systems
    6. Are most of these old systems – or are they new manufacturing models of old designs?
    7. Any other comments / recommendations
     
  2. jer fly

    jer fly cottage grove Member

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    That's a lot of questions to answer at once. Yes there are lots of mode. Yes I hunt with mine, 223, 7.62x39, 308. The obvious reasons are obvious for a reason. Barrel length does not determine accuracy. Some systems are old (1940's) some are new. Heavy interest? Guns are tools, the more useful, the more interest. Obviously these are my opinions. Hope this helps....
     
  3. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe Lower Yakima Valley Well-Known Member

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    Many people who hunt are not necessarily "gun people," meaning that they don't have a collection of firearms. I know many who have one shotgun and one rifle, or just one shotgun or one rifle, and that's it. Few of these people spend much time on the range, so it is unlikely that they will shoot at things more than 250 yards or so away. That being the case, and most of them only shooting at game within 150yds or so, it doesn't matter so much what rifle they use, so they use what is familiar (if they have military training), or what seems cool, or whatever their friends are using.
     
  4. chainsaw

    chainsaw East side of Or. Active Member

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    I believe this "black rifle" craze is/was brought on by the media.The intense commercialization of them makes everyone want one.Making them look like the ultimate,evil,killing machine makes every macho guy in the nation feel like a real "army seal"when he shows up at the range and slams that 30 rd "clip" into the bottom of the gun.
    This opinion is targeted toward the majority of sheeple in this country when the AR fad began.I realize this weapon has a huge following of competent gun owners,so please don't flame me too bad.
     
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  5. sadiesassy

    sadiesassy Prescott Active Member

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    Jetfly
    Sorry i made such a broad subject - just trying to get educated.
    But since I do not have a lot of guns - it peaked my interest of using a tactical type weapon for hunting and not having several guns.
    I believe 308 and 7.62 Nato are the same.( For some reason I believe 7.62x51 is Nato - may be wrong there)
    Is there a reason that one uses 7.62x39 or 7.62x51. Is it basically the rifle model
     
  6. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe Lower Yakima Valley Well-Known Member

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    .308 Winchester and 7.62 NATO are not exactly the same, though they are very close. 7.62 NATO ammunition has looser tolerances, so a .308Win chamber should safely fire any 7.62 NATO ammunition, but some 7.62 NATO chambers may be too large to safely fire .308Win ammunition. Some chambers are manufactured to fit both specifications.

    7.62 NATO is x51 which is the case length. So the 7.62 NATO round is 12mm longer than the 7.62x39 case, which means more room for powder. So .308Win is more powerful than 7.62x39 which is more powerful than .223Rem/5.56mm. Here is a photo of the 7.62x39 next to a 7.62x51 cartridge.

    The 7.62x39 round is similar to .30-30 for performance. The .308Win will be more effective at longer rangers and deliver more energy to the target at the equivalent range. At 300 yards, the .308Win will deliver about double the energy of the 7.62x39.
     
  7. sadiesassy

    sadiesassy Prescott Active Member

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    Thank you
     
  8. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    Simple answer ........See attached pic.
     
  9. chainsaw

    chainsaw East side of Or. Active Member

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    Not this guy,I never played with dolls.
     
  10. jer fly

    jer fly cottage grove Member

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    Sadiesassy.... no wrong doing on your part. Im just a two finger typer so it takes me awhile to answer. 7.62x51 nato is the same as 308 win. 7.62x39 is the round commonly found chambered in sks, and AK-47. The last two numbers represent the length of the case in millimeters.
     
  11. that one dude

    that one dude Oregon New Member

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    Nobody got their rocks off buying a Camry.
     
  12. ch139

    ch139 teh gehtoe Active Member

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    What are the looser tolerances of 7.62 NATO ammunition as compared to 308 Winchester ammunition?
     
  13. ch139

    ch139 teh gehtoe Active Member

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    My opinion is worth what you paid for it, so...

    1. They're everywhere! ar15.com is the largest internet firearm related forum and has been up and running more than a decade now. The proliferation of tactical weapons has grown along with the internet and the (mis)information found there. It is a symbiotic feeding frenzy; the diatribe in pulp and e-information fuel/drive the buyers who seek more, more companies keep springing up to offer their products. Then there's also the word of mouth; now that you got one you're going to make sure all your friends know and they’ll all want on too.

    2. Even some coming through may not have a clue. In a nutshell AR stands for Armalite Rifle. That name came about by Armalite (a division of Fairchild Aviation – all AR history) and was bought by Colt (who still "owns" the AR-15 name). There's a zillion different companies out there making every different part, doo-dad, bell, whistle, turn signal and accessory for these "AR like" rifles. As Colt owns "AR" everyone has to give their rifle a different name. They're all "similar." Don't read that they're all the same, that's a whole different discussion on who builds what, what matters and what is good and what is bad. The name AR-10 is still owned by Armalite and is their 308 version of the "AR" type rifle. Again, similar to the AR-15 type rifles, there are many different manufactures of 308 AR type rifles and parts, just a lot of different names.

    Kinda same for the AK. Invented by the Russians. Made a certain way (milled receiver – after trying stamped) for a certain amount of time then changed back to a stamped/riveted receiver and called the AKM (mountains of history here too). Communist politics being different, Russia exported many and got many other com-bloc countries making their own versions of the Russian rifle. Russians switched from the 7.62x39 cartridge to the 5.45x39 cartridge (NATO had gone to the 5.56, Russian brass though that was the way for them to go too), so enter the AK-74 (stamped and riveted from the get-go) and then have all the other countries following suit as above. Oh, and then there were of course many different versions, sizes etc. from everybody.

    3. Shorter barrels are not necessarily more or less accurate, however there has always been an idea (right or wrong) that a shorter barrel has less "whip" "vibration" whatever you want to call it than a longer barrel and is thus more consistent giving it more potential to be it more accurate. I can buy that. From personal experience, shorter barreled rifles seem to have been more accurate than longer barreled rifles. Now, there are plenty of "longer" barreled or "normal" rifles that are amazingly accurate, so I don't know if I'd let this be a factor. One thing is for sure, the shorter a barrel, the less velocity you're going to get up. May or may not be an issue for you, but it might also be the world of difference for you too. My most accurate AR is a Colt with a heavy 10-inch barrel.

    4. no idea, I'm not a hunter.

    5. As above, everything you can dream up is available out there, just gotta wade through the carp to get to (find out) the good stuff.

    6. The AK and the AR "system" are both fairly old, but then again, so is most everything in the firearms world. They both work fine, but then there's always someone trying to reinvent the wheel (cough – piston guns – cough… they'll know what I'm talking about).

    7. Both the "AR" and the "AK" are fairly easy weapons systems to learn, it's all the carp you have to wade through first (like anything else). I'd tell you to buy quality stuff the first time instead of going cheap and buying carp. With that, you'll hear a lot about "mil-spec" this or that when it comes to ARs. Gotta stop for a second and think what you’'e reading. It's a buzz word/term. The military has some very specific specifications for their rifles/carbines. At this time Colt builds the M4 Carbine for the U. S. military and FN builds the M16A4 for them. Nobody else! The specifications are well known and another company may well build a part to or even above and beyond the "Mil-Spec" but don't swallow the mil-spec pill that everybody and their dog will try to sell you, because, more than likely, its not. And then does it really matter? We can't own a true "Mil-Spec" M4 or M16A4 as the general public is not allowed to own new select-fire weapons (class III – machineguns - is a whole different thing to be gone into on a different day). So, unless you enlist, you're not going to have a "Mil-Spec" weapon. You may well have a gun full of "Mil-Spec" parts. If that interests you look for a Colt 6920 or 6921 if you're looking for that extra ounce of authenticity, that's as close as you're going to get without that enlistment. Beyond that (and I am a fanboy, my blood bleeds Colt and Dillon blue), the best thing going in the AR marketplace is Bravo Co. Mfg. (BCM). Ridiculously awesome equipment at a great price.

    Hope this helped.
     
  14. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    *shrug* my favourite, and most oft used, rifle was made in '42 and only holds 5 rounds, has no modern optics but still can cloverleaf a target at 300m. My 'modern' rifle was made in '72 and has a few modern do-dads; night vision, foreward grip assistance. Neither really look tactical even though both are certified war veterans.
     
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  15. Bazooka Joe

    Bazooka Joe Lower Yakima Valley Well-Known Member

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    Looser tolerances may not have been the best wording. What I meant was simply that the 7.62 Nato chamber can be longer (thus looser) than the .308 chamber. This blog post has a good explanation. Here is an excerpt:
     
  16. sadiesassy

    sadiesassy Prescott Active Member

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    CH139
    Thanks for helping put the picture together.

    It is interesting but it seems 50% of the items on Hunting classified seem to be some form of Tactical weapon or a part of a weapon.
     
  17. pioneer461

    pioneer461 Columbia County, Oregon Active Member

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    Many moons ago, when the so-called "assault weapon" debate was in high gear, the anti-gun, flat-Earthers decided that "approved" guns must meet what they called the "sporting purpose" test. (Thanks, Bill Ruger.) Despite the fact that the 2nd Amendment says nothing about hunting or sport, they thought this would be a clever way to attack EBR's. A trend has developed in the last few years to use AR platform for hunting, thus negating the "sporting purpose" argument. The only difference in AR's and other semi-automatic rifles is cosmetics, or how they look.
     
  18. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    My reasons

    1. Why such a heavy interest in these guns? Obviously peaked my interest
    They used to be quite affordable to shoot and still are compared to shooting big bore hunting type rifles . 1000 rds of .223 for $129 1000 rds of 7.62x39 for $69. They are fun to shoot , at those prices you could really develop your marksman skills as well as just have a good time. Some can be assembled at home . many accessories on the market . some can relive their days in the service . these rifles are multi purpose.


    2. Obviously if you came through the military the nomenclature is clearer . IS there some documentation that clarifies what is what . I thought I understood what AK47, AR15 and AR 10 are. But then you have 10 000 variants like AK74, LAR8. etc. Variety Wyat Variety


    3. Are the shorter barrels accurate at 300 – 400 yds? depends on what you are shooting. the longer thicker the barrel the better the harmonics, puts a little more spin on the bullet ,


    4. How many actually hunt with them - I am assuming using the .308 cartridge.
    I coin this phase "Had Muskets been designed with pistol grips all modern hunting rifles would look like a Ak or AR" . However I do not believe the .223 is a suitable round for big game (anything deer size or bigger) some will argue this but the .223 was made to tumble not to make a exit wound which creates a needed blood trail. You can make a gut shot on a deer by hitting it in the lungs because it tumbles , you can hit a deer and never know you hit it and rack it up as a miss since the bullet may not exit so no real blood trail to verify a hit . granted good shot placement will bring them down Now a .308 or 6.8spc or 6.5 grendel are all great choices for deer hunting.


    5. Seems like it is a huge customization market - every one is selling parts of systems Yep and we all think woman accessorize too much


    6. Are most of these old systems – or are they new manufacturing models of old designs?
    Pretty much when but there are some newer systems out there but most are based on these systems


    7.Any other comments / recommendations[/QUOTE]
    Buy one try it out but beware there is a fever can you can catch called Black rifle fever. once you get it its a hard habit to break almost a addition.
     
  19. ch139

    ch139 teh gehtoe Active Member

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    3. How does a longer, thicker barrel that may make the harmonics better, put a little more spin on a bullet?

    4 How is the .223 made to tumble and not to make a exit wound?
     
  20. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    the .223 fragments... if it's tumbling, it failed to fragment. SP loads expand like any other hunting load.. but i'm not aware of any .223/5.56 bullet that's ever been designed to "tumble."
     
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