Tactical weapons education

[One-Eyed Ross]

then there is that whole idea of vendors using "tactical" as a marketing ploy. I've seen everything from rifles to underwear being listed as "tactical" just to sell it to mall ninja types....

Personally, I gave up being "tactical" when I stopped being a tanker decades ago...

 

[eldbillbo]

bkb0000 thanks for noting that.

Perhaps tumble was not the best discriptive word
when 5.56 was first introduced they had to sell the idea of 5.56 as a replacement to the far superior 7.62x51 bullet . they presented it as a bullet that when it hits flesh that rather than busting through bone and flesh and exiting near the oposite side with a hole considerably larger than that going in . The 5.56 would yes fragment but also roll bounce and deviate from its original path thus making it damaging in a internal way leading to more man power to try to save a dying man vs. leaving a dead one. This idea is good for a battlefield but no much for deer hunting.

Thats has been the biggest argument for replacing the 5.56 is that is lacks the knock down power of a bigger diameter bullet such as the 7.62 that is why the 6.8spc was introduced

the 5.56 will hit flesh and do to its size and shape go off path inside a body cavity ( so yes tumble was the the quickest way without a long explanation of what i was refering to) it will tend to go through the first bone but deflect off another . Hit a man in the chest with it have it lodge in the hip.

Yes the SP bullet is designed to expand like other hunting bullets but due to its size in my opinion not enough for big such as deer or elk or bear.

yotes and thin hide cougars yes.

 

[chainsaw]

then there is that whole idea of vendors using "tactical" as a marketing ploy. I've seen everything from rifles to underwear being listed as "tactical" just to sell it to mall ninja types....

Personally, I gave up being "tactical" when I stopped being a tanker decades ago...

Exactly what the whole civilian market "tactical'is all about.what average civilian actually NEEDS an ar with flashlight,lasersight,bayonet,reddot,fork and spoon,cell phone,toilet paper dispenser,etc.

 

[eldbillbo]

3. How does a longer, thicker barrel that may make the harmonics better, put a little more spin on a bullet?

thicker barrel less vibration = better harmonics

longer barrel more rotation in the twist = more velocity = equals a little more accuracy, but quality the barrel maker puts into the barrel plays a big part in accuracy. and the quality of steel. thats why some barrels are $150 and others $350 when you pay the extra money for a quality barrel your not just paying for a name brand but what made that name brand.

 

[The B]

bkb0000 thanks for noting that.

Perhaps tumble was not the best discriptive word
when 5.56 was first introduced they had to sell the idea of 5.56 as a replacement to the far superior 7.62x51 bullet . they presented it as a bullet that when it hits flesh that rather than busting through bone and flesh and exiting near the oposite side with a hole considerably larger than that going in . The 5.56 would yes fragment but also roll bounce and deviate from its original path thus making it damaging in a internal way leading to more man power to try to save a dying man vs. leaving a dead one. This idea is good for a battlefield but no much for deer hunting.

Thats has been the biggest argument for replacing the 5.56 is that is lacks the knock down power of a bigger diameter bullet such as the 7.62 that is why the 6.8spc was introduced

the 5.56 will hit flesh and do to its size and shape go off path inside a body cavity ( so yes tumble was the the quickest way without a long explanation of what i was refering to) it will tend to go through the first bone but deflect off another . Hit a man in the chest with it have it lodge in the hip.

Yes the SP bullet is designed to expand like other hunting bullets but due to its size in my opinion not enough for big such as deer or elk or bear.

yotes and thin hide cougars yes.

the term is "yaw" :winkkiss:

 

[ch139]

bkb0000 thanks for noting that.

Perhaps tumble was not the best discriptive word
when 5.56 was first introduced they had to sell the idea of 5.56 as a replacement to the far superior 7.62x51 bullet . they presented it as a bullet that when it hits flesh that rather than busting through bone and flesh and exiting near the oposite side with a hole considerably larger than that going in . The 5.56 would yes fragment but also roll bounce and deviate from its original path thus making it damaging in a internal way leading to more man power to try to save a dying man vs. leaving a dead one. This idea is good for a battlefield but no much for deer hunting.

Thats has been the biggest argument for replacing the 5.56 is that is lacks the knock down power of a bigger diameter bullet such as the 7.62 that is why the 6.8spc was introduced

the 5.56 will hit flesh and do to its size and shape go off path inside a body cavity ( so yes tumble was the the quickest way without a long explanation of what i was refering to) it will tend to go through the first bone but deflect off another . Hit a man in the chest with it have it lodge in the hip.

Yes the SP bullet is designed to expand like other hunting bullets but due to its size in my opinion not enough for big such as deer or elk or bear.

yotes and thin hide cougars yes.

First paragraph, I've been hearing that too for the last 30-years or so, but never actually seen anything confirming it. That information has been passed around for decades and is now considered the gospel truth, but it is false.

The 5.56 does indeed lack the knockdown power of the 7.62 NATO to be sure, but 6.8spc was/is a commercial shot at trying to sell the military something.

The third paragraph is false too. So, we're talking about people being shot with the 5.56 NATO round here right? We're talking military then (very few police shootings, so lets stick with military for the time being). Lets stick with the most prevalent round then, the M855 ammunition with the 62gr (SS109) steel core bullet is not going into a persons body, going through one bone and deflecting off a second – going into the chest and lodging on the hip. That is all incorrect information. Using the M855 ammunition for example (remember we're talking about shooting people here, we're talking about military) it is a tough (remember steel core "penetrator"), relatively small bullet at a relatively high speed hitting human flesh. They rip right through flesh/tissue without much expansion at all, they may loose their copper jacket and have the lead and settle core separate (the "fragmentation" that is talked about – many years ago some bullets would break apart inside the body, another entire study) . The bullet may indeed hit bone and be slightly deflected. In most instances, the damage caused by these rounds will cause massive blood loss leading to death, but taking time, this is not the knockdown power talked about found in the 7.62 NATO round.

I'm not a hunter, so I can not speak to the effectiveness of the Soft Point 223 ammunition on game. eldbillbo, do you hunt deer, elk, bear coyotes and cougars?

thicker barrel less vibration = better harmonics

longer barrel more rotation in the twist = more velocity = equals a little more accuracy, but quality the barrel maker puts into the barrel plays a big part in accuracy. and the quality of steel. thats why some barrels are $150 and others $350 when you pay the extra money for a quality barrel your not just paying for a name brand but what made that name brand.

Longer barrel more rotation in the twist? What does that mean? How does that give more velocity? How does that lead to better accuracy?

None of that is correct.

Length of the barrel has NOTHING to do with the twist of the rifling, NOTHING. If a barrel has a 1 in 7 twist (1/7 rifling makes one full "twist" (360 degrees) inside the barrel in seven inches) it has a 1/7 twist. If its 14-inches long then it makes two twists. If its 1/12 then its one twist in 12-inches. If its 1/48 then it's one twist in 48-inches, etc., etc. The length of the barrel has nothing to do with twist rate.

Hypothetically, a "faster" twist may not let the bullet accelerate (higher velocity) than a slower twist. Now you get into volumetric efficiency and bore capacity (which you'll have to read about on your own as I can't type here all day – even thought I'm sure everybody wants to hear me got on and on). The length of a barrel may have an effect on a velocity. Think of the 5.56/223 out of say a five inch barrel – there is a lot of unused powder/propellant when that bullet exits that short barrel. As soon as any bullet does exit any barrel, it begins to slow down. Since there was all that unused powder, we may have used a longer barrel and used that powder and it burn to further accelerate the bullet, say in a 20-inch barrel. Now, say you're shooting a little 9mm (talking 9x19 here) out of a long(er) 20-inch barrel. All the powder the 9mm case can muster was burnt out an the peak pressure reached long before the bullet reached the muzzle. The bullet has having to continue down the bore (with friction) on its own momentum without expanding gasses behind it pushing it (technically, the gasses are there, but they aren't doing anything to help). Having a longer barrel has been a waste as far as increasing velocity and may well have hindered it. Its all relative.

Velocity does not equal accuracy.

Now the GIANT problem we have here is there is much false information (misinformation) intentional or not that is being spread about because someone has a keyboard and wants to edumicate the unlearned. PLEASE, I implore you. If you do not know something, PLEASE, for the love of God, DO NOT post about it.

 

[The B]

First paragraph, I’ve been hearing that too for the last 30-years or so, but never actually seen anything confirming it. That information has been passed around for decades and is now considered the gospel truth, but it is false.

The 5.56 does indeed lack the knockdown power of the 7.62 NATO to be sure, but 6.8spc was/is a commercial shot at trying to sell the military something.

The third paragraph is false too. So, we’re talking about people being shot with the 5.56 NATO round here right? We’re talking military then (very few police shootings, so lets stick with military for the time being). Lets stick with the most prevalent round then, the M855 ammunition with the 62gr (SS109) steel core bullet is not going into a persons body, going through one bone and deflecting off a second – going into the chest and lodging on the hip. That is all incorrect information. Using the M855 ammunition for example (remember we’re talking about shooting people here, we’re talking about military) it is a tough (remember steel core “penetrator”), relatively small bullet at a relatively high speed hitting human flesh. They rip right through flesh/tissue without much expansion at all, they may loose their copper jacket and have the lead and settle core separate (the “fragmentation” that is talked about – many years ago some bullets would break apart inside the body, another entire study) . The bullet may indeed hit bone and be slightly deflected. In most instances, the damage caused by these rounds will cause massive blood loss leading to death, but taking time, this is not the knockdown power talked about found in the 7.62 NATO round.

I’m not a hunter, so I can not speak to the effectiveness of the Soft Point 223 ammunition on game. eldbillbo, do you hunt deer, elk, bear coyotes and cougars?



Longer barrel more rotation in the twist? What does that mean? How does that give more velocity? How does that lead to better accuracy?

None of that is correct.

Length of the barrel has NOTHING to do with the twist of the rifling, NOTHING. If a barrel has a 1 in 7 twist (1/7 rifling makes one full “twist” (360 degrees) inside the barrel in seven inches) it has a 1/7 twist. If its 14-inches long then it makes two twists. If its 1/12 then its one twist in 12-inches. If its 1/48 then it’s one twist in 48-inches, etc., etc. The length of the barrel has nothing to do with twist rate.

Hypothetically, a “faster” twist may not let the bullet accelerate (higher velocity) than a slower twist. Now you get into volumetric efficiency and bore capacity (which you’ll have to read about on your own as I can’t type here all day – even thought I’m sure everybody wants to hear me got on and on). The length of a barrel may have an effect on a velocity. Think of the 5.56/223 out of say a five inch barrel – there is a lot of unused powder/propellant when that bullet exits that short barrel. As soon as any bullet does exit any barrel, it begins to slow down. Since there was all that unused powder, we may have used a longer barrel and used that powder and it burn to further accelerate the bullet, say in a 20-inch barrel. Now, say you’re shooting a little 9mm (talking 9x19 here) out of a long(er) 20-inch barrel. All the powder the 9mm case can muster was burnt out an the peak pressure reached long before the bullet reached the muzzle. The bullet has having to continue down the bore (with friction) on its own momentum without expanding gasses behind it pushing it (technically, the gasses are there, but they aren’t doing anything to help). Having a longer barrel has been a waste as far as increasing velocity and may well have hindered it. Its all relative.

Velocity does not equal accuracy.

Now the GIANT problem we have here is there is much false information (misinformation) intentional or not that is being spread about because someone has a keyboard and wants to edumicate the unlearned. PLEASE, I implore you. If you do not know something, PLEASE, for the love of God, DO NOT post about it.

there's no "knockdown power" in any of these loads. no round has the capability of knocking a person down, or over. the average adult man weighs 1,224,998 grains... it's not going to matter if you shoot him with a 55gr, 62gr, 130gr, or even 500gr bullet.

current (accurate, rather than voodoo) terminal ballistics is dominated by temporary cavitation. and the only roll the bullet/load plays in temporary cavitation and how it effects the target is the size and density of the target. if a given 7.62 load performs better against a soft target than a given 5.56, its because it did a better job of penetrating and retaining enough energy to cause a nastier temporary cavity... there's really not much else to it.. and it's why NATO still uses, and will continue to use the 5.56 for their assault weapon load of choice. it performs just as well as any other practical load against soft targets within the average engagement range, but costs less, weighs less, and takes up less space.

 

[eldbillbo]

ch139 i am no expert and i stated on my first reply this is just my opinion and i knew some one would come along and either rebut or confirm my thoughts and opinions but

If a bullet has more velocity wouldn't travel flatter and be less susceptible to wind
say if you were shooting a 16 vs a 24 at longer ranges? granted shorter ranges it would not be measurable.

granted there are many factors in accuracy but i was sure this was one of them.
and granted if we anything under 200yrds who would know the difference.

bkb0000
when i refer to knock down power it is not so much about how it hits but the path it makes once it hits and pushes . what do you think is better for personal protection a 9mm or.45 and if a .45 why?

 

[The B]

ch139 i am no expert and i stated on my first reply this is just my opinion and i knew some one would come along and either rebut or confirm my thoughts and opinions but

If a bullet has more velocity wouldn't travel flatter and be less susceptible to wind
say if you were shooting a 16 vs a 24 at longer ranges? granted shorter ranges it would not be measurable.

granted there are many factors in accuracy but i was sure this was one of them.
and granted if we anything under 200yrds who would know the difference.

bkb0000
when i refer to knock down power it is not so much about how it hits but the path it makes once it hits and pushes . what do you think is better for personal protection a 9mm or.45 and if a .45 why?

we're all going to regret it if we get into the 9mm v 45 debate...

but for our purposes, i'll just summarize my opinion by stating there isn't an automatic pistol cartridge which meets penetration requirements that's any more lethal or better at stopping than another- so on the surface, going against a soft target at 10' with one shot, it's not going to make the slightest bit of difference if you have a 9mm BJHP or a .45 BJHP. they'll both either hit something vital and be effective, or miss something vital and be ineffective.

since you should NEVER train to fire just one round at an eminent lethal threat, i do have a preference.

 

[chainsaw]

The only way velocity affects accuracy is if the velocity of a given bullet is the same for each round.A thicker barrel is no more accurate than a thin barrel,it is just accurate for more rounds.If it is a quality barrel.The thin barrel heats and warps faster.It also cools faster.

 

[Shooter98]

The longer vs. shorter barrel dilema really came to light when they started fitting silencers on sniper rifles and were cutting back the barrels about 10-12". People started rebutting the idea that you need a 26" barrel to hit 1K yards when teams using 18" barrels with 10" silencers were still proving to be very accurate out very long distances. I haven't yet seen a definitive answer on the theory yet.

 

[The B]

it's not a theory.. as has been touched on, the cut of the barrel has everything to do with accuracy at distance, length has little. guys have consistently gonged hits on 12" steel out to 600m+ with quality 10.5" AR barrels, noveske and centurion barrels both with a number of documented accounts. leade cut and headspace, bore diameter, and crown all determine a barrel's accuracy.

barrel length only starts to affect accuracy out past a certain affective range, depending on the load/barrel length, as the round's spin destabilizes. but if the round is spinning above around 250,000rpm, IIRC, regardless of distance, it'll be as accurate as it is at 10m.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

reference the 6.8 here is an interesting read:
Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA512331

it is 76 pages but well worth the read

 

[sadiesassy]

One EYed Ross - Great primer for how we got to this point. Thank you

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

don't mention it.

Personally, I liked the A1 version of the AR, but that is because I am an old fart and that's what we had for a long, long time. I don't remember ever shooting an A2, actually....guess they got to USAG after I retired. (I was assigned to Madagan for the last 5 years of my time in, and we had to use whatever USAG let us borrow for qualification).

 

[Chipperxd]

does it really matter why the tacticool guns are popular? if you like it buy it, shoot the crap out of it and enjoy it.

This is not directed at anyone in this thread but I love the hypocrisy of some of the gun forums and owners that bash certain guns/accessories.

Yes we don't need to have our ARs and AKs tacticooled. but doesn't mean there is anything wrong with doing so either.

 

[sadiesassy]

The question poised accepted that people buy guns because they can or like them. I was looking for an understanding on their capability and what was what. I have nothing against tactical guns - I was just never raised with them and was ignorant on the subject. I thing One Eye had the best information in terms of history and brought me up to probably several years ago.. And like the diagram someone provided - you can build just about any combination.

 

[Chipperxd]

The question poised accepted that people buy guns because they can or like them. I was looking for an understanding on their capability and what was what. I have nothing against tactical guns - I was just never raised with them and was ignorant on the subject. I thing One Eye had the best information in terms of history and brought me up to probably several years ago.. And like the diagram someone provided - you can build just about any combination.

wasn't really referring to your post when I made that comment. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just referring to posters poking fun at the black rifle ownership. they make is sound like having alot of aftermarket support is a bad thing. Some people just can't seem to grasp the concept that looks/taste is subjective.

 

[The B]

everyone's been guilty of rolling their eyes at other people's bubblegum. we have high opinions of our opinions, otherwise we wouldn't hold them... so it goes against the grain when we see people doing things contrary to our beliefs.

you'll find this on the range, in the internet forum, on campus, on the track, in the gym, etc, etc. those who can recognize the futility of giving a rat's *** what the next guy is doing will live longer, healthier lives.

 

[mjbskwim]

I think the "tumble" myth came from Viet Nam,where the bullet probably did tumble after hitting a couple of those huge leaves they had to shoot through some times.

But if the bullet is tumbling then how are some getting accuracy at longer ranges?
And who is watching the bullet tumble at 3000fps? Hmmm

The black rifles do have their place in hunting.I was always laughing (and still do at deer hunters) at the guys using them for hunting....deer. Now for coyotes and small fast game,where the follow up shot is needed,then they are pretty good.Or for a little herd of yotes.

308/762 NATO is a fine all around cartridge for most big game in No America. 762/39 is fine for close work

Now as far as barrel length? You can read 100 articles and get 12,346 different ideas as to which length is the best for any given caliber. Some say the longer because you get better burn from the powder which would give more velocity ,which should give more accuracy with a flatter trajectory.
But thats just some long range hunters and comp shooters articles I've come across.

Then some,but not as many claim the harmonics stuff. Depends on who wrote the article.
But there is a lot more going on with the barrel that makes or breaks accuracy than just barrel length