Still like the Sig 320? 20 Federal agents, police, private citizens file lawsuit

[DirectDrive]

Check out this ridiculous yt video! Idiots need to learn how to better manage their fingers!

View attachment 1416877

Yet another one.
Guilty !

 

[Kruel J]

1) P320 is the "new kid on the block" and depts. across the country are adopting it.
Glock went through this with their "Glock Leg" period as cops transitioned from revolvers and manual safety pistols

2) They can't prove that the weapon fires by itself.
The vast majority of these reports are from people trying to save their jobs (police officers)

Conclusion :
Some users in some environments are not suited for a firearm without a manual safety.

Since Glock already had their issues, wouldn't it make sense that people are used to the transition from manual safety firearms? That "newness" wore off a long time ago and the 320 doesn't operate any differently than other SA guns so......

Also, how do you know the reports are from people trying to save their jobs? So this whole thing is nonsense and just user error? Nah.

 

[titsonritz]

Via 'The Truth About Guns': How the Authors of the Washington Post/Trace Hit Piece on the SIG SAUER P320 Faceplanted

ABC News had just aired a couple of reports on the lawsuits, interviewing one of the officers involved and her attorney, Jeffrey Bagnell. Bagnell made the case for the cameras that if all of these highly skilled and extensively trained individuals — cops — were having problems, something must be wrong with the guns. Because as everyone knows, no one is more skilled and practices safe gun handling quite like law enforcement officers.

 

[DirectDrive]

Since Glock already had their issues, wouldn't it make sense that people are used to the transition from manual safety firearms? That "newness" wore off a long time ago and the 320 doesn't operate any differently than other SA guns so......

[/QUOTE]
P320 does not have a trigger safety like a Glock.
P320 is a DA

Also, how do you know the reports are from people trying to save their jobs?
So this whole thing is nonsense and just user error? Nah.

[/QUOTE]
We have all seen the reports/lawsuits and where they come from.
Fear of termination is a key ingredient in many of these cases and I will post a statement from a Texas police officer/armorer/RO which shows how it looks from his perspective.
I could highlight the key portions, but they are all throughout the statement.




Lots of information about lighter trigger pulls, liability of hitting exactly what your shooting at and training to mitigate the possibilities of ND's. While this is relating to NYPD and Glocks, the same can be said for any agency and concerns about ND's and trigger weights.

We can "what if" this topic all day long, but IMO and from experience, the majority of theses issues with the 320 and it supposedly firing on it's own, is a training and awareness issue.

Again referencing back to the majority of these reports coming from LE and not civilians. LE handle their duty weapons far more often than the average civilian. The average civilian is typically more conscientious about firearms handling. and here is why.

Most officers are lackadaisical in firearms handling because it is just another one of our tools. Basic safety rituals are forgotten or not followed as closely as they should because we are so used to handling firearms. There isn't a single time on the range that I don't have to correct multiple officers handling of their weapons, safety wise.

Because most every officers has a firearm at work, the law of averages takes over. Take 100 police officers and 100 civilians. 100 of the officers are carrying pistol while only 15 to 20 of those civilians may be carrying. It's math, there is a far greater chance of something happening with those 100 officers vs the 20 civilians.

Top that with the fact those 20 civilians are more aware and cautious about the firearms their carrying. Maybe 20 or 30 officers are that cautious, but the other 70 or 80 maybe treat their duty weapon like they would their radio or flashlight.

That's a recipe for something bad to happen no matter what pistol they may be carrying. Those bad things do happen and most of the time, the public doesn't hear about it. The previous 320 drop fire issues just adds fuel, and an excuse to those incidents where the person doesn't want to take responsibility. I have personally witnessed three ND incidents by officers in my 30 years. All three were with different pistols, A glock, a 1911, and a Sig P220. Two of those officers are no longer officers and the third took a heavy hit over it.

An ND is one of the worst thing that can happen to an officer, quite often resulting in termination. So add that to this equation and you can see how some of these people in the suit could be just trying to save themselves rather than just doing the right thing.



TXPO

 

[titsonritz]

Check out this ridiculous yt video! Idiots need to learn how to better manage their fingers!

View attachment 1416877

I'm not sure which is more lame, that "armorer" or that cop shooting himself as he exits his vehicle then tries to blame it on the gun.

 

[solv3nt]

Check out this ridiculous yt video! Idiots need to learn how to better manage their fingers!

View attachment 1416877

If this is just mishandling and misplaced blame, how come this isn't spread out to other manufacturers? Most of them have some type of lawsuits but nothing so widespread as this. Defend it all you like. But to place all the blame on the handling seems far reaching. I get it, feelings and all that. But please everyone don't just ignore this.

Milwaukee Police Changing Duty Sidearm After Lawsuit Over Unexpected Discharges

"It is a breath of fresh air where we have open lines of communication on important issues such as these," says Milwaukee Police Association President Andrew Wagner. "We just want these firearms replaced with a safe and reliable firearm."

www.policemag.com

So let me get this straight, the gun doesn't fire until he touches it when he's drawing it....? Something smells funny....

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

yeah i cant stand the 320 just because its not a glock, cz or 1911

 

[titsonritz]

If this is just mishandling and misplaced blame, how come this isn't spread out to other manufacturers? Most of them have some type of lawsuits but nothing so widespread as this. Defend it all you like. But to place all the blame on the handling seems far reaching. I get it, feelings and all that. But please everyone don't just ignore this.

Milwaukee Police Changing Duty Sidearm After Lawsuit Over Unexpected Discharges

"It is a breath of fresh air where we have open lines of communication on important issues such as these," says Milwaukee Police Association President Andrew Wagner. "We just want these firearms replaced with a safe and reliable firearm."

www.policemag.com

Time ramp up that asset forfeiture.

 

[titsonritz]

The reason I will not get a striker fired pistol of any make. John Browning gave up on them.

I'm not sure I'd consider a patent and 5 million pistol produced qualifies as "gave up on them."


A Classic Design
From what I've read, the Hugo Borchardt C-93 (1883) was the first striker-fired semi-auto pistol produced in any quantity. Although well made, the C-93 was a bulky, ungainly looking pistol. One of the people involved in testing the C-93 was Georg Luger. He addressed the various shortcomings of the C-93 to develop a practical, graceful sidearm. Luger's design was adopted by the Swiss in 1900, and became the standard German sidearm in 1908. The striker-fired P-08 served Germany's armed forces in two world wars.

Around the same time, John Browning designed and patented a striker-fired pistol. It would be manufactured by Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Belgium as the model 1900. Browning designed another striker-fired pistol that was produced by FN as the model 1910.

Both FN pistols (and a 1922 variation) proved extremely popular. In fact counting just the pre-WWI Luger and the FN pistols, total production was likely around five million striker-fired pistols. In the early years of the 20th century several more striker-fired pistols were introduced by companies such as Mauser, Sauer and Savage.

STRIKER-FIRED WHAT'S OLD IS NEW AGAIN

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I'm not sure I'd consider a patent and 5 million pistol produced qualifies as "gave up on them."


A Classic Design
From what I've read, the Hugo Borchardt C-93 (1883) was the first striker-fired semi-auto pistol produced in any quantity. Although well made, the C-93 was a bulky, ungainly looking pistol. One of the people involved in testing the C-93 was Georg Luger. He addressed the various shortcomings of the C-93 to develop a practical, graceful sidearm. Luger's design was adopted by the Swiss in 1900, and became the standard German sidearm in 1908. The striker-fired P-08 served Germany's armed forces in two world wars.

Around the same time, John Browning designed and patented a striker-fired pistol. It would be manufactured by Fabrique Nationale (FN) in Belgium as the model 1900. Browning designed another striker-fired pistol that was produced by FN as the model 1910.

Both FN pistols (and a 1922 variation) proved extremely popular. In fact counting just the pre-WWI Luger and the FN pistols, total production was likely around five million striker-fired pistols. In the early years of the 20th century several more striker-fired pistols were introduced by companies such as Mauser, Sauer and Savage.

STRIKER-FIRED WHAT'S OLD IS NEW AGAIN

I have a Model 1910 in 7.65 as well. I actually have a fascination with pre ww1 and ww1 semi autos. Lots of little striker fired guns.

 

[Old Dog]

If this is just mishandling and misplaced blame, how come this isn't spread out to other manufacturers? Most of them have some type of lawsuits but nothing so widespread as this. Defend it all you like. But to place all the blame on the handling seems far reaching. I get it, feelings and all that. But please everyone don't just ignore this.

My point exactly. As far as I'm concerned, there's literally too many recorded incidents to solely blame it on bad handling..

It has spread to other manufacturers. The 1.0 release of the S&W M&P saw several large LE agencies quickly give up on the pistol; while there were some mechanical issues with the pistol, LASD gave up on it due to the number of "unintentional" discharges its deputies were (allegedly) having.

It is bad handling. Have you guys actually read through the lawsuit? Guy has a discharge at the gym with the pistol wrapped in a towel? Gal has a discharge with the pistol in her purse? Several other happened as the pistol was (allegedly) be re-holstered?

Did the part where it was noted that independent firearm forensic experts could not duplicate the unintended discharges escape everyone?

As I noted earlier in this thread (or maybe some others), every ND I witnessed, heard first-person accounts about, or investigated, NONE were the fault of the pistol. Of course, this was the last 18 years spent in law enforcement with a bunch of highly trained professionals. Seriously, I wish I could share everything I have seen or know about how members of the LE community attempt to cover stuff up, and it's not just NDs.

 

[DirectDrive]

^^^


And the disparaging videos will continue to get posted until a new pistol design comes along.
Then the P320 saga will archive back with the Glock Leg era.
And so it goes.

 

[WillametteWill]

There are plenty of reported instances of the 320 discharging unintentionally. Google or just read the article in the OP.

AB pulled the trigger.

But, but, but...he said he didn't. Just like everyone having ND's with 320's. Just say'n.

Also regarding the point of just Google (alleged) instances of self-firing 320s. Point of fact, there are 32,200,000 hits on Elvis sightings after he died. Google is not exactly the gold standard of data sourcing.

If Sig hasn't sold a million of these, they are really close.

According to a recent list I saw, the #1 selling firearm on GunBroker for last year.

Check out this ridiculous yt video! Idiots need to learn how to better manage their fingers!

Ten seconds into the video there is a still (of I believe the officer) holding his gun with his trigger finger improperly indexed. You don't place your finger there because of many reasons, EXACTLY like the stressful situation he was in when his gun went off by itself. Slip-capture, startle response, and many other conditions will cause your finger to curve rapido and, where he shows it indexed (if that is him indeed in the photo). This video is the most unbelievable I have seen and shows how officers are jumping on the, "It's not my fault, it was the gun all by itself, AB defense," running amuck.

Glock had this problem when introduced (which is why we have the New York trigger), someone mentioned S&W first gens with LAPD did, and now Sig...shocked, shocked I tell you. As I noted in an earlier post, Sig is advertising 30% less trigger pull. Less trigger pull weight = greater likelihood of ND's.

Again, I want to know how many of these guns had manual safeties (and we still don't know factually if the users activated them).

 

[Member 53328]

So if it's bad gun handling can we all just agree that P320 owners are just incompetent…..

While Glock owners are competent…..

Hell, gangbangers run Glocks and they don't shoot themselves. They also don't hit their targets either.

Do certain brands attract certain competence levels?

 

[WillametteWill]

So if it's bad gun handling can we all just agree that P320 owners are just incompetent…..

While Glock owners are competent…..

Hell, gangbangers run Glocks and they don't shoot themselves. They also don't hit their targets either.

Do certain brands attract certain competence levels?

Well, maybe new Glock owner are. Perhaps it was a natural selection thing and only the good ones are left. The rest went back to revolvers.

 

[Member 53328]

Well, maybe new Glock owner are. Perhaps it was a natural selection thing and only the good ones are left. The rest went back to revolvers.

I'm a fan of natural selection.

Revolvers not so much. Haha.

 

[Old Dog]

Hell, gangbangers run Glocks and they don't shoot themselves. T

Based on my experience in Greater Pugetropolis, yes, yes they do. (Or they claim it was a drive-by and someone from a rival gang shot them.)

The gangbangers just don't sue Glock, either.

Do certain brands attract certain competence levels?

Bro, you gotta keep up -- SIG is the new GLOCK. This is 1998, redux.

 

[Member 53328]

Based on my experience in Greater Pugetropolis, yes, yes they do. (Or they claim it was a drive-by and someone from a rival gang shot them.)

The gangbangers just don't sue Glock, either.


Bro, you gotta keep up -- SIG is the new GLOCK. This is 1998, redux.

Sarcasm much?

Haha. It's all a joke. I had 4 P320s and a P365 when they were the rage. None of them ever went off. With that being said I didn't have confidence in carrying one appendix with a round in the chamber.

If I can't trust the gun (even if its purely personal reasons) then they serve no purpose to me. They have all been sold.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

(J/k)

Based on my experience in Greater Pugetropolis, yes, yes they do. (Or they claim it was a drive-by and someone from a rival gang shot them.)

The gangbangers just don't sue Glock, either.


Bro, you gotta keep up -- SIG is the new GLOCK. This is 1998, redux.

When buying a gun, just look for the sticker.

 

[Member 53328]

In all seriousness I don't know if the P320s have an issue. If the military uses them I would think we would see a lot of issues there.

Talking from experience and my time in the USMC many members should carry around a plant to compensate that oxygen then waist by being alive. If incompetence/poor handling was the major issue I would expect to see a high count of incidents in the military.

The military is also very good at keeping issues and f-ck ups in house and out of the medias sight. So who knows.

All I know is I have zero desire to own a P320 ever again.