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Sighting Rifles 25 vs 100 Yards

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by etrain16, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'll start by saying that when it comes to rifles, I'm still a bit new to certain aspects. Messing with optics and sighting in rifles is something I have very little experience. It is something I'm trying to learn through various means.

    This week, I went to the range to adjust the sights on an M1 Garand. After doing some reading online, I read a few suggestions to take the rear sight back to null settings (no windage or elevation adjustments), then to start at 25 yards and see where you land, making adjustments as you go, then moving out to 100 yards once you get things dialed in at 25.

    I went out earlier this week to give this a try for the first time. Unfortunately I didn't realize until after I got there that I had forgotten my spotting scope, so I was going to have to stick to 25 yards for the day.

    I had previously shot the rifle off hand, but couldn't get a good feel for where the sights were set, so I just wanted to start from zero adjustments and go from there. My first shots were low and left, so I started dialing some elevation, a click at a time, as well as pulling in some windage adjustment. I was loading a single round at a time, fired from a rest. Ammo was a mix of older surplus and some newer manufacture PMC loaded for the M1. As I made the adjustments, I could see I was getting closer to the center mark. As I was running out of time, I moved to the outer bulleyes to put 2 rounds in each and make some additional adjustments.

    Overall, I could see an improvement in the sighting. In the photo below, target 1 shows the shots I fired as I did the initial adjustments. Then I moved in order to targets 2, 3, 4 and finally 5. I was pretty happy with #4 and on #5, both shots went about through the same hole, but were still a bit low and left. Part of this is probably me just getting used to the rifle, the sights and the trigger. I'm probably throwing this off just by my own lack of experience. But it's all part of learning.

    So, I think I need just a bit more elevation and windage and I should be about dead on. And that finally brings me to my big question - if I get this dead on at 25 yards, what further adjustment do I need to make to zero at 100 yards? The internet hasn't been particularly helpful here as some folks say zero at 25 is pretty much zero at 100, while others say that there needs to be some elevation adjustment.

    What do the good, much more experienced folks have to offer here? Do I need to make further adjustments for 100 yards once I nail down the 25 yard zero? What type of groups should I be expecting from the M1 typically when it is at zero? Again, I'm new to this, so please forgive the pleb questions ;)

    Thanks folks!

    IMG_6551a2.JPG
     
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  2. NoLimePlease

    NoLimePlease Portland Member

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    In my scope manual it tells me that sighting in at 50 yards is the same zero at 200 yards. I'm not sure, but I would assume that the same would hold true for a 25 yard zero to say maybe 150 yard zero.
    Awesome grouping by the way!
     
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  3. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Thanks!

    To be clear, I'm working strictly with iron sights on this rifle. I think I read that zeroing with a scope is a bit different due to the height of the scope centerline above the barrel. However, I don't know if that's actually true or not. Have you heard anything about a difference between zeroing irons vs glass?
     
  4. Oregon Quartermaster

    Oregon Quartermaster SE Portland Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Ideally you want to zero your rifle where the path of the bullet crosses back into the line of bore, or as close to the distance you plan on shooting it normally. Or don't, it's your gun.
     
  5. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    At the moment, I want to zero on 100 yards since that's the distance I'll be shooting at the range.
     
  6. NoLimePlease

    NoLimePlease Portland Member

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    Yes it would change, but the equation to figure it out is beyond me. I think it works like this:
    If you have a axis 1" above bore, then at 25 yards your bullet would be at the same zero when the bullet travels far enough to drop back to the original 1" above your bore axis.
    or something like that :)
     
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  7. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    If I remember correctly, a 25m zero is the same as a 300m zero on an AR
    I always sight at 25 yards because (1) I can see the POI and nail down the zero in about 3-5 shots, and (2) I'm old and can't see past 25 yards anyways :confused::oops:o_O:)
     
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  8. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I can see past 25 yards, but I can't see an impact on a target at 100 without some real help. Honestly, I was having a hard time seeing the impacts at 25 yards, at least where they were clustered together.
     
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  9. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Bring some binoculars if you have them. I'm too cheap to buy a spotting scope.
     
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  10. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I've actually got a spotting scope (not a really expensive one), my problem is that I actually need to remember to bring it with me...:(
     
  11. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Rub shoulders with shooters experienced in the Garand.
    DRRC 12 August 6pm-10pm Service Rifle clinic classroom
    13 August 8am 3pm Service Rifle match to 600 yards.
     
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  12. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    etrain16 likes this.
  13. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Here's a 50 yard target for the garand
    upload_2016-7-16_20-37-48.jpeg
     
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  14. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    Congrats on the Garand etrain16 I know you have been looking for one for a while! I have no hard and fast advice specific to the Garand AND ammo loaded specifically to the M-1 so you are going to have to play round a bit and see where you want it! A 25 yard sight in should be equal to 235 yards zero,( assuming a 150 gr bullet at M-1 Specs) and you should be a bit low at 300 (like bottom of the front pin) From there, your drum markings should be very close! Depending on which sights your rifle has, I would start with a 25 or a 50 yard zero, and work it out from there using the rear elevation marks and keeping a log of you hits vertically! Once you know exactly where your rifle prints, it's just a matter of finding the best loads for it! Mine like the Hornady A match (03 spring load) and not so much the Garand loads! So you may want to play a little and see! Mine also seems to do well with the Winchester silver box 168 grain soft points, It prints a touch low, but holds nice and tight out to 900 yards! Have fun and let us know who she does!
     
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  15. No_Regerts

    No_Regerts United States Well-Known Member

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    One thing you can do is identify your maximum point blank range for your load (think if your bullet was fired through an 8 inch pipe, MPBR is the maximum distance a bullets trajectory would allow it to stay in the pipe at its highest and lowest point).

    Works great on hunting rifles because its generally further than a standard zero and allows you to not worry about changing POA out to the distance of tour MPBR.
     
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  16. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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  17. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I was signed up to do the Service Rifle this weekend, but alas, family things came up that required my attention. No sure if I'll be able to do the match in August. I did do the match in May. The sighting I was doing this week was in advance of the Service Rifle match, until my plans got changed. Hopefully I'll get back to one of them one of these days.
     
  18. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I don't expect an old M1 to give super tight groups, but I know some good shooters can get some impressive groups. I'm saving all my brass so I can eventually start to load my own. I've only loaded pistol at this point, but have plans to load for rifle too. The M1 is one rifle I'm planning to eventually load for.
     
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  19. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I'm not familiar with that concept, I'll definitely have to do a little googling on that one. I've really spent much of my shooting over the years more on pistols than rifles, and since I don't hunt, I haven't thought much about shooting further than 25 yards or so. But I'm getting more interested in longer shots, so I know I've got a lot to learn.
     
  20. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    How's your shoulder feel?
     
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