Safety considerations while carrying

[WillametteWill]

• One guy was trying to break up a fight between other people. That isn't a crime.

If this is referring to Jason Washington, um, have you watched the video where when the police arrive multiple people are shouting at them that he pulled a gun on them, and they even walk right up to him and point him out? The audio is clear of the repeated warnings they give him. It was dark and his skin color is not much different from many others in the group...who were not shot. Could the reported .242 blood alcohol level have something more to do with it than skin color?

 

[WillametteWill]

This is a complex issue. It's tragic when somebody is shot or killed and it didn't need to happen, no matter what the color of their skin...or any other factor. Training for officers should always be improving. More work with the communities can be done. But when the media (and others) focus solely one factor, little traction will be gained.

 

[Flopsweat]

If you want or expect to see racism, you'll see it whether it's there or not. You don't have to be a bad person to suffer from this delusion; It's human nature. The good news is that you can change if you want to.

 

[BSG 75]

So let's see, quick Google search:
Gary Black, Aurora, CO, had just defended himself from an armed intruder, shot and killed by police, 2018.

The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying. Gary Black was killed in his own home, not while carrying outside the home. Next.

Officer Lane Butler, accidentally shot by her partner during a call, 2019.

One cop on duty accidentally shot by her partner while on duty. Fortunately she wasn't killed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home. Next.

Tony Garces, Amarillo, TX, shot by police as he disarmed an actual shooter, 2018

Garces was not carrying. He took a gun away from a shooter. Fortunately he wasn't killed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home. Next.

Elio Carrion, Chino, CA shot by deputy, lived goes back to 2006 but I did this because the officer happened to be black, was charged with a crime, and acquitted.

From 2006, and Carrion wasn't even armed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home.

Well, 0 for 4. Next.

 

[No_Regerts]

The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying. Gary Black was killed in his own home, not while carrying outside the home. Next.



One cop on duty accidentally shot by her partner while on duty. Fortunately she wasn't killed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home. Next.



Garces was not carrying. He took a gun away from a shooter. Fortunately he wasn't killed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home. Next.



From 2006, and Carrion wasn't even armed. The topic is the OP's black friend being afraid to conceal carry because he is afraid of being shot by the cops while carrying outside the home.

Well, 0 for 4. Next.

Its not really 0 for 4. Each situation is a guy holding a gun when the police arrive. Whether it was concealed or openly carried or found on the ground, doesn't really matter. Its whether the police act differently when they respond to a shooting and they show up and see a guy with a gun.

 

[WillametteWill]

If you can't draw comparisons I just don't know what to say. Would you like the weather the same, wearing the same clothes, and happening on Tuesday?

 

[BSG 75]

If you can't draw comparisons I just don't know what to say. Would you like the weather the same, wearing the same clothes, and happening on Tuesday?

You can't draw comparisons when they aren't even in the same ballpark. I easily found FOUR cases of legally armed black men being KILLED out in public, three in 2018 alone. So far after 90 posts the only "comparable" cases of legally armed white people being shot out in public are one cop shooting his partner, an UNARMED man being shot in 2006, etc. If all concealed carriers are at equal risk of being shot by police then it should be easy to find at least the same number of white concealed carriers being shot during the past year or three. So far, crickets.

Again, the OP's black friend said

He said he has a pistol, but he has no interest in ever carrying it or getting a CHL, because if a police officer ever saw him with it he would be shot dead because he is black.

Given recent incidents involving black men, and apparently no comparable amount of incidents involving white men during the same time period, it's not a completely unreasonable stance. People carry to protect themselves, not to INCREASE the chance they will be shot.

 

[Jeedia]

Do White Police Officers Unfairly Target Black Suspects? by John R. Lott, Carlisle E. Moody :: SSRN

This while for un-armed suspects, this would contradict your assumptions.

 

[Flymph]

You can't draw comparisons when they aren't even in the same ballpark. I easily found FOUR cases of legally armed black men being KILLED out in public, three in 2018 alone. So far after 90 posts the only "comparable" cases of legally armed white people being shot out in public are one cop shooting his partner, an UNARMED man being shot in 2006, etc. If all concealed carriers are at equal risk of being shot by police then it should be easy to find at least the same number of white concealed carriers being shot during the past year or three. So far, crickets.

Again, the OP's black friend said



Given recent incidents involving black men, and apparently no comparable amount of incidents involving white men during the same time period, it's not a completely unreasonable stance. People carry to protect themselves, not to INCREASE the chance they will be shot.

Can you explain to me what the ballpark is then?
I thought the ball park was law abiding people carrying firearms who were shot by police. Then the discussion shifted to how those statistics vary based on ethnicity.

The base concern of the OP's friend is that he will be victimized by police merely for having a weapon and being black. The OP's objective is not to prove that black people are discriminated against, or how many times a police officer wrongfully shoots somebody. The objective is to find some sort of solace for the OP's friend that may make him reconsider his views about carrying a firearm or even just getting a CHL.

Frankly, people get shot by police and sometimes it happens wrongfully.
I worry about it and I'm white.

Instead of trying to validate some fear mongering, why not offer some constructive input.

 

[titsonritz]

https://tribunist.com/news/harvard-study-on-police-shootings-and-race-offers-shocking-conclusion/
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf

 

[Jeedia]

He friend just needs to take a few classes on the law and use of force. Information on the subject should clear it up. But my guess is his friend has his mind made up and isnt looking to have It changed.

 

[Flymph]

Here is my piece of constructive advice; with a CHL the friend of the OP is far less likely to accidentally commit any crime involved with the transportation of his firearm, be it to a practice range, while hunting, fishing, or for personal defense.
He will also take a class in safe use and legal uses of his pistol, which education always helps to keep everyone safer.

Carrying comes with comfort... that will come in time.

 

[Alexx1401]

If this is referring to Jason Washington, um, have you watched the video where when the police arrive multiple people are shouting at them that he pulled a gun on them, and they even walk right up to him and point him out? The audio is clear of the repeated warnings they give him. It was dark and his skin color is not much different from many others in the group...who were not shot. Could the reported .242 blood alcohol level have something more to do with it than skin color?

As I have tried to say many times, situations like this are used by people who have their mind made up, they will never hear facts. Many want him to be some innocent victim of evil police. They will keep repeating this no matter how many facts are thrown at them because this is what they want to be true. It becomes almost like a religion to them. It's impossible to change someones mind if they don't want to hear facts. Sadly this is the case with most of the "we hate all cops" crowd.

 

[P7M13]

I skipped ahead from page 2.
Rather than finding data to support or refute his assertion, recognize that he's thinking emotionally.
Looking at the root of those thoughts, ask yourself, or better yet, ask him - how old is he, and where did he grow up?
Ask him to really think about where those thoughts come from.
It's there that the initial sense of distrust was established and programmed into his psyche.
To wit: if he is around 50, grew up in parts of the midwest (Chicago, Detroit, Columbus - to name a few that I do know of), he probably witnessed police brutality. Philadelphia and Boston from that era could fall into the same category.
A highly educated, white, very wealthy friend will *always* inherently distrust police. Why? He has a very sharp sense of humor, often comes across as a smartass, and made the wrong comment to a cop while heading home from school. He was taken to the station and beaten severely (early '70's) and has scars on his back to show for it. I knew his mom (RIP) she corroborated. If I were his little brother, I would not trust police either.

Bias, xenophobia, and racism exist and will always. It's all fear, in its simplest form.
If that is his fear, and he never resolves it, he should NOT carry. If he were to carry it with unresolved fears, he would probably do something stupid in an encounter with police, win a stupid prize, and everyone loses.

 

[WillametteWill]

From the conclusions on page #39 of the report cited above:
"Yet, on the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial differences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls."

"It is the most surprising result of my career," Fryer said in an interview with the New York Times.

I appreciate his honesty. And to the OP, such an honest and well asked question. I pray for a resolution for your friend. That we as society keep striving to improve. That the media and others stop pounding on issues that are not fact based (and I'm not saying there haven't been cases).

 

[Alexx1401]

He friend just needs to take a few classes on the law and use of force. Information on the subject should clear it up. But my guess is his friend has his mind made up and isnt looking to have It changed.

EXACTLY! The "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" crowd. The more facts you give them the angrier they get. When someone wants something they believe to be true to the point they become desperate, it becomes a fantasy to think you can show them facts and change their mind. Best to just let them stew in their hate, it's what runs their life. <shrug>

 

[Flopsweat]

EXACTLY! The "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" crowd. The more facts you give them the angrier they get. When someone wants something they believe to be true to the point they become desperate, it becomes a fantasy to think you can show them facts and change their mind. Best to just let them stew in their hate, it's what runs their life. <shrug>

His friend is probably always going to think that way. If you're a true friend, provide what information you can, and forget about it. Change the subject - permanently. Let it go and enjoy each others' company.

 

[Alexx1401]

His friend is probably always going to think that way. If you're a true friend, provide what information you can, and forget about it. Change the subject - permanently. Let it go and enjoy each others' company.

Yep this is what I do with friends, family, coworkers, and such like this. Give them some facts when they bring this up and drop it. When I give them facts I can see them getting angry, so I drop it. It becomes pointless to beat a dead horse when they start to get mad. Only thing I can do is let them find out on their own. Many who are severely anti gun change their mind when they become a victim. Sadly some times this is the only way to reach them. The ones who hate all Cops? Often nothing can be done for them. They have zero clue what the world would be without the Cops so they continue with that idea. <shrug>

 

[Flopsweat]

Yep this is what I do with friends, family, coworkers, and such like this. Give them some facts when they bring this up and drop it. When I give them facts I can see them getting angry, so I drop it. It becomes pointless to beat a dead horse when they start to get mad. Only thing I can do is let them find out on their own. Many who are severely anti gun change their mind when they become a victim. Sadly some times this is the only way to reach them. The ones who hate all Cops? Often nothing can be done for them. They have zero clue what the world would be without the Cops so they continue with that idea. <shrug>

It's worked for me far more than being an bubblegum. I've tried both methods, so I have a real, if small result set.

 

[Vettewine]

I can see his point of view as I grew up in L.A. (Los Angeles) and was a minority white at my high school. Even though I was white, the L.A. cops treated us like crap most of the time but it did seem to be more of an age thing than a color thing with that agency. Once I was on a double date with a friend and we got stopped for no reason we could see (I was driving) and both of us guys and both girls were made to get out of the car and stand with out hands on the top of the vehicle while one of the cops (there were 2 of them) frisked the four of us one at a time while his partner watched. The problem was that he basically "felt up" the girls and both cops watched us guys very closely to see if we would try to do anything about it. Experiences like that didn't make me too fond of cops in general but since I've moved up here to the Pacific NW, almost 46 years ago now, I have more respect for those that wear the badge (I even have a couple of relatives that are cops) although you can still find some that are just criminals in cops attire most anywhere. It's said that the psychological profile of a criminal and a cop are very similar and it just depends on a few things as to which side of the line they will be on...