Safety considerations while carrying

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I'm not in LE, but I'm old enough to have seen lots of types of people and in my humble opinion, those who go through life with a chip on their shoulder will always react poorly when confronted by authority.

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with attitude.

 

[Flopsweat]

Is that you, Elizabeth?

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Faux-cahontas
Lie-awatha
Spitting Bull
Spreading Bull
Scams with a Fist
Lack 'a Jawea

 

[Jeedia]

Did you even read the stories?

• One guy was trying to break up a fight between other people. That isn't a crime.
• And had a gun. He reached to pick up the dropped gun after police told him to stop.
• Another guy heard shots and was running away from the sound of the shots. He never drew his weapon.
• He did draw his weapon there were multiple witnesses. He was also thought to be involved with the shooters or victims.
• The bouncer returned fire after some guy came into his club and started shooting. The bouncer apprehended the suspect and then was mistakenly shot by police.
• If you have a gun out In an active shooter situation you are going to get shot! End of story! Every single instructor agrees. Being black had nothing to do with him getting shot.
• Castille was pulled over during a traffic stop. If he wanted to shoot the officer why did he politely inform the officer that he was carrying a firearm? The officer panicked and shot Castille, and was later fired by his agency.
• This is probably your best case. But he wasnt shot because he was black carrying a gun. He was reaching for his wallet which also happen to be next to his weapon.

I'm so tired if people claiming racism to cover up irresponsible behavior. Follow what the police tell you to do. Dont drink/drug to the point you cant follow their directions or make reasonable decisions.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

I'm not in LE, but I'm old enough to have seen lots of types of people and in my humble opinion, those who go through life with a chip on their shoulder will always react poorly when confronted by authority.

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with attitude.

THIS. The Portland papers made a huge stink for two weeks over "Black man gets thrown out of Doubletree Hotel". Do you know how many women are attacked coming in and out of Big City hotels at night? The guy "fit the description" by hanging around the lobby talking on his phone. Why not call from your room?

Then he copped a huge attitude when asked for his room number. Continuing to loudly protest when the cops showed up is why he got kicked out. Two weeks of prostrating by every city official from the Mayor on down followed as all citizens of Portland must take the blame for every injustice going back to the Japanese internment camps. Of course now the guy is a Hilton Gold Member for life.

A story like 2 shot to death on Portland bridges; man arrested only gets two days of air play, and of course it's the guns fault so we all must disarm.

 

[MannyGlocks]

Sigmadog,

Your cogent and succinct post is right on the money.

I love to watch "PD Live".

People post about LE having bad attitudes, but generally fail to mention the 'you can't tell me what to do' miscreant/malcontent attitudes they regularly encounter. As a viewer of this documentary/reality show you will see it as a regular part of those who think I can do whatever I want and you LE officers can't tell me otherwise...

Hey, you don't have to be a butt kisser, but being courteous goes a long, long way with LE...but, I have to admit I feel a sense of Schadenfreude when LE gives these turd buckets 'the good news'...

If LE pulls you over...comply.

 

[MannyGlocks]

I don't know if this has been mentioned as I generally skip over wordy posts, but has it been mentioned, more white guys are shot by LE and mostly deserved it?

Are there examples of folks (black and white) who were by LE shot that shouldn't have been?

All those complaining expecting perfection in LE - get over it.

Nothing is perfect in action including...you.

 

[Jeedia]

Of course he had a gun. This whole topic is about black men legally carrying a gun who were shot by police. Washington tripped and his gun fell out of his holster. Like any normal person when he saw what happened he reached down to pick it up. The cops yelled "gun!" and with the commotion at the scene there is no evidence Washington even heard the cops. Then the PSU campus cops opened fire.
The gun wasnt his. It was his buddies. And he was in control of a weapon while intoxicated. Which I believe in OR is a crime. If a gun comes out dont reach for it. It's not rocket science. Just because he was drunk and stupid doesnt make this a bad shoot. Police dont want to get shot alot more than they want to shoot you.

There are contradictory accounts of what happened. The gun was visible in his waistband but it isn't clear if he drew it, there are conflicting eyewitness accounts. The case is still under review by the US Dept. of Justice EJ Bradford shooting under federal review, US Attorney says What isn't in dispute is that EJ Bradford Jr. didn't fire the shots that caused police to appear in the first place, and Bradford was not committing a crime or fleeing from a crime when he was shot.
The police saw the weapon out, multiple witnesses saw it. How is this in dispute? It is also thought he was connected to the shooting. But this hasn't been expanded on.


The guy was doing his job and defending himself. You claimed "All of the individuals you listed were NOT law abiding citizens doing nothing." All three people were "law-abiding" citizens at the time they were shot. Castille was pulled over for some reason but committing a moving violation doesn't mean you are not a law-abiding citizen.

If you have a gun out when police arrive. You will be shot. This has nothing to do with skin color. It is your actions that get you shot. Put the gun away and obey police commands. I dont care if people dont like them or if you think they violate your rights. Fight that in court. In the real world you will always lose a fire fight with police.

 

[BSG 75]

In the real world you will always lose a fire fight with police.

NONE of the people killed were in a "fire fight with police". NONE of them fired even one round at the police. Bradford didn't receive a warning before he was shot in the back of the head.

The officer said he thought Mr. Bradford was going to kill the two men, and the report said the officer had "mistakenly believed" Mr. Bradford had fired the initial shots.

The officer said he was unable to issue verbal commands before firing, "due to the quickness of the event and the immediate threat Bradford posed" to the two men he was approaching.

Officer Faces No Charges in Fatal Shooting in an Alabama Mall

How was Bradford supposed to follow instructions that he never received?

 

[CLT65]

Is that you, Elizabeth?

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Nope, I don't even identify as Native American, or even a Marxist wacko, for that matter.

I read somewhere that a large percentage of Americans have some Native American ancestry, and many more think they do, but probably don't. I would never consider myself "Native American" because of one relatively distant ancestor; that would seem pretentious and disrespectful. So, instead of ethnic pride, I'll have to mope around in my shame of being a Heinz-57 mutt with ancestors from mostly all over Europe and Scandinavia. OR, I could just not worry about it...

 

[Jeedia]

Yea but 3 of the 4 had a gun out. Whether a shot was fired or not make little differance. If you dont comply immediately you will be shot. That is the world we live in it has nothing to do with them being black. You still have yet to prove they were shot because they were black and carrying. Their actions got them killed not their skin color.

 

[No_Regerts]

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.
Being familiar with the area, No Regerts may not want to say it as it could be taken as inflammatory, but I'd contend the area outside the McCord gate, known as "Chocolate City" and Tillicum by the freeway he mentions as policing, used to be drug and gang central. It's cleaned up a lot, but if he's been an officer for more than a decade, I am personally very impressed at his statement. I can say I've had my hand on my carry or was in high alert many dozens of times. And that's visiting people I knew lived in the area.
Even at 20/60 split, I'd bet serious crimes were way more heavily slanted towards minority suspects.
Policing is a tough job. I don't believe the race baiting that police are on the lookout or hunt black males. Media inflames the stories so much and so quick.
I DO believe there may be predisposition that could impact a decision, usually against a minority. I also believe lots of profiling goes on. I am not against profiling.
For example, cop pulls over a $500 car with $2000 rims, sounds, and tinted windows. Driver has no license 8/10 times, is the profiling unjust? Hey, I've been the 2/10 that was all legal many times. Felt pissed about getting hassled, but I understand..I fit the profile.
Not sure if I'm making it clear how it feels to be a minority encountering police. Just one more perspective.
I will leave it at this. I highly doubt a white kid playing with a toy gun would get shot by police, but I can think of at least two black kids that did. I'm also 100% sure that was not those officers intent that day it happened.

Ha, I wasn't talking about Pierce Co. I was talking more of the bedroom communities to the south where everyone is generally O-4 or E-7 or higher.

 

[BSG 75]

If you dont comply immediately you will be shot.

Again, Bradford did not receive an instruction to comply with before he was shot in the back of the head.

That is the world we live in it has nothing to do with them being black. You still have yet to prove they were shot because they were black and carrying. Their actions got them killed not their skin color.

So it's just a coincidence that it has happened disproportionately to legally armed black men? As I posted earlier, based on percentage of the population we should be seeing it happen 4.7x more often to white men legally carrying than black men legally carrying, but I'm still waiting to see someone post even one instance of it happening to a white guy in the past three years. Not someone walking out of their house carrying a rifle, a white guy legally carrying a handgun in public, something the OP's black friend is afraid to do.

I'm not going to speculate on why it is so, I don't know. But I'm not going to ignore what seems to be a trend and pretend it's just a coincidence.

 

[Jeedia]

Again, Bradford did not receive an instruction to comply with before he was shot in the back of the head.



So it's just a coincidence that it has happened disproportionately to legally armed black men? As I posted earlier, based on percentage of the population we should be seeing it happen 4.7x more often to white men legally carrying than black men legally carrying, but I'm still waiting to see someone post even one instance of it happening to a white guy in the past three years. Not someone walking out of their house carrying a rifle, a white guy legally carrying a handgun, something the OP's black friend is afraid to do.

I'm not going to speculate on why it is so, I don't know. But I'm not going to ignore what seems to be a trend and pretend it's just a coincidence.

Bradfore did have a gun in his hand. We can argue what facts mean but I'm not going to dispute them.

Why would you assume it 4.7x more? Blacks do not commit crime 4.7x less than others. Infact they commit it about 4x more than whites, asians, and others combined( excluding latinos). Just because you make up 13% of the population doesnt mean you will commit 13% of the crime. Blacks commit around 50-60% of the crime in the US.

 

[BSG 75]

Bradfore did have a gun in his hand. We can argue what facts mean but I'm not going to dispute them.

Again, the officer who shot Bradford said he didn't have time to give Bradford any instructions before he shot Bradford in the back of the head. Pretty hard to follow instructions from the police if they shoot you before giving you any instructions.

Why would you assume it 4.7x more?

I am not aware of any demographic breakdown of the millions of concealed carry permit holders in the country. Blacks are 13% of the population and whites are 61% of the population. There are 4.7x as many whites as blacks. If the percentage of permit holders who are black is similar to their percentage of the population then 13% of permit holders should be black and 4.7x that number should be white. But whether the actual percentage is 6% or 8% or 13% or 15% or 17% of permit holders, if all permit holders are equally at risk of being shot by police regardless of race then we should be seeing far more white permit holders being shot than black permit holders. Where are they? Where are all the legally armed white people being shot by police? Is it just a coincidence that all of the recent legally armed people who were shot by police were black? According to you, it is.

 

[Jeedia]

Your logic is flawed.

 

[BSG 75]

Your logic is flawed.

Without any explanation that's not much of a rebuttal. That's like saying "you're wrong". OK.

 

[Jeedia]

Lets drop the black/white/whatever. Just because ethnicity X is 28% of the population, does not equal 28% of a sub set of that group. Ex. X concealed carriers. You have to account for alot of other variables. Like what % of population X is even able either financially or legally able to own a firearm. Then it would be a sub set of that group. So it would have to be <28%.

 

[BSG 75]

Lets drop the black/white/whatever. Just because ethnicity X is 28% of the population, does not equal 28% of a sub set of that group. Ex. X concealed carriers. You have to account for alot of other variables. Like what % of population X is even able either financially or legally able to own a firearm. Then it would be a sub set of that group. So it would have to be <28%.

Again, whether blacks are 13% or 23% or 33% of concealed carry permit holders, there is no evidence they are a majority. In fact, according to this



only 24% of blacks own guns - below the national average - compared to 36% of whites. So logically the percentage of concealed carry permit holders who are black is probably LESS than 13%. 24% of 13% means 3% of the population are black gun owners. 36% of 61% means 22% of the population are white gun owners. So the actual ratio of white gun owners to black gun owners is 7 to 1.

But for the sake of argument lets say the ratio of white concealed carry permit holder to black concealed carry permit holders is only 2 to 1 instead of 7 to 1. If all permit holders are equally at risk of being shot by police regardless of race then we should be seeing at least twice as many white permit holders being shot than black permit holders being shot. Where are they? Where are all the legally armed white people being shot by police? Is it just a coincidence that all of the recent legally armed people who were shot by police were black? Just bad luck? According to you, it is.

 

[KKG]

I was a Minority once. I was a City Police Officer and a Fisheries Patrol Officer for the Quilleutte Tribal Council out in LaPush. The Chief was Puerto Rican, the Sergeant was 15/16 Quilleutte Indian, I was the Token White(hired because I could run the boat) and the Fourth Officer was pure blooded Ho. More than once I was taunted by different members of the tribe who offered to do a number of things for and to me. All of those doing the offering had been drinking. The boat was the while reason I took the job.

When I started my shift in Friday night, I ran the best up river to the edge of the Reservation and then floated back down, pulling the best that had been left in by the owners. I pulled 4 to 5 nets, each contained a number of fish and other critters, all of which had to be killed, since I was not allowed to remove anything from the net. A really messy job. I'd haul the nets into the warehouse where all the others were stored. That was a pleasant place to just go into - NOT!

The job wasn't over. I'd spent the rest of the night doing paperwork.

Monday(my day off) I would be in Court with the owners who would simply plead guilty. Each and every one was placed on probation for 6 months. They were then given a chit to go over to the BIA and pick up a new net plus a chit to pay someone to rig the new one. The #2 man's wife made very good money rigging them. To the time of $125.00 each.

Now to describe the nets: They were 600' long X 8' tall. If course they were only allowed to fish 1/3 of the river but they also were allowed to out all 600 feet of it into the water. This was one VERY big river. Maybe 50 to 60' at the mouth, down to 20 or so feet at the forks, and in many places only inches deep. Needless to say NOTHING got past those nets!

Like I said, the only reason I worked there was the boat. Now for the boat: It was a Brand New 14' Center Console, Aluminum double hull with a 225hp Volvo Marine engine and a Hamilton Net drive. That had spray in foam in between the hulls. The only way you could have sink it was to park it underneath the dock. It was in pitiful sight that first day I saw it I had offered to clean it up, the next day I went to work for them, because it had not been run in a couple of months. It was full of water and the two electric bilge pumps had been run down and the salt water was just about to finish off the batteries. I took care of that right away.

Now this tail also explains why the Salmon fishery is what it is here in Washington.

 

[WillametteWill]

So let's see, quick Google search:
Gary Black, Aurora, CO, had just defended himself from an armed intruder, shot and killed by police, 2018.
Officer Lane Butler, accidentally shot by her partner during a call, 2019.
Tony Garces, Amarillo, TX, shot by police as he disarmed an actual shooter, 2018
Elio Carrion, Chino, CA shot by deputy, lived goes back to 2006 but I did this because the officer happened to be black, was charged with a crime, and acquitted.

So for BSG 75, what to all of these have in common? You guessed it. The person "mistakenly" shot was not black. But here is what I found most interesting during the search. For every article found of a mistaken shooting of a "white' person, a similar instance with a person of color has about 10-20 media articles, often more. Interesting. Could the media be fueling some of this?