Safety considerations while carrying

[Flopsweat]

I had a friend who hated "the police" - basically any form of law enforcement. He had only negative encounters with them, and it happened often. If there was a ticket to be written, he would get it. None of them cared about his side of the story. They were all out to get him. When the subject came up, he had plenty of rants against the police and stories about his interactions with them. I noticed a common theme - every time he "knew" they were going to "f with him" before the encounter even started. Every time he had something nasty to say to them. He would clench his jaws just talking to me about them. He really hated them and expected the worst from them. Eventually I also learned that he didn't care much for rules, laws or honest business dealings.

Here's the thing: You'd never know any of this by looking at him or in casual conversation, or even working with him. He's a well-educated white male who dresses conservatively, has no tattoos, piercings, hair color or other affectations that might make him stand out in any way. He works in the tech sector and last I knew drove a minivan (we don't keep in touch).

Now please don't think that I'm projecting this on anyone else, but in this single, specific circumstance, I think he was the cause of his own suffering. He put himself in bad situations and made them worse once the police showed up, and then wanted to blame everything on anyone but himself.

I present this as something to think about - nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Lazyfaire]

And then there's this.....

A policeman caught a nasty little boy with a bb gun in one hand and a guinea pig in the other.
"Now Listen here," the policeman said,
"Whatever you do to that poor, defenceless creature I shall personally do to you"
"In that case," said the boy.
"I'll kiss its a butt and let it go"

 

[BSG 75]

Yeah, we got lost somewhere along the way. Let me try this again. There is zero statistical evidence to support the premise that LE shoot legally armed black people at rates that are much different than others, merely based on the color if their skin.

I agree. I also don't think there is any evidence that they don't.

There is zero evidence of systemic institutionalized racism.

I don't think anyone, even the OP's friend, claimed in this thread there was "systemic institutionalized racism", except as a joke.

"He even jokes about how cops love to shoot minorities, and get high-fives from their peers and medals from their superiors when they do."

So like I originally said, if 1000 people are shot by police every year, and say 10 of them were doing nothing wrong but were armed, most of those 10 would be fine if they did what I said. Remain calm and polite, keep your hands where they can be seen, make slow deliberate motions. No matter what color you are.

Always good advice, because otherwise you could be shot dead, even though you did nothing wrong.

So yeah, I think that the numbers absolutely suggest that the OPs friend will be just fine. I think that the perceptions are skewed by a disproportionate media coverage. Case in point, did the cases of Scott Creach or Otto Zehm make alot of national noise (I only know about them because they happened in my back yard)? What if they were black?

Creach shooting - Topic page at The Spokesman-Review

Death of Otto Zehm - Wikipedia

The Creach case was from 2010. A white man who disobeyed repeated orders to drop his weapon didn't comply and was eventually shot by police. In the case of the legally armed black men being shot by police they were shot within seconds of being encountered by police.

The Zehm case is even older, from 2006. Zehm wasn't legally carrying and in fact wasn't even armed. So I don't really think that supports your case.

So after a brief search I found 4 cases of legally armed black men being killed by police during the past 3 years, and we still haven't been presented with even one case of the same thing happening to a white person during the same time period, even though whites are 61% of the population and blacks are 13% of the population. Assuming the same percentages apply to legal concealed carry, you would expect to see a 4.7:1 ratio of legally armed white people being shot by police to legally armed black people being shot by police, but given the apparent lack of incidents of legally armed white people being shot by police being reported here, that doesn't appear to be the case. Not even close. Based on percentage of the population if both whites and blacks who are legally armed were at equal risk of being killed by police there should have been 19 cases of legally armed white people being killed vs the 4 cases of legally armed black men being killed during the same time period.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude, barring contrary evidence, that the OP's black friend's concern that he may be at increased risk compared to white people of being shot by police while legally carrying is not unreasonable. The risk may be small but it appears to be higher than for white people for whatever reason, not just "systemic institutionalized racism".

 

[Alexx1401]

I had a friend who hated "the police" - He would clench his jaws just talking to me about them. He really hated them and expected the worst from them. Eventually I also learned that he didn't care much for rules, laws or honest business dealings.

.

and there it is right there. A LOT of the "I hate all Cops" crowd is just like this. They flaunt the law, then when stopped have a huge chip on their shoulder. They become a self foe filling prophecy. They have one other thing in common. NOTHING they ever get in trouble for was their fault. Get fired from some job, it was everyone else's fault.

 

[MannyGlocks]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, that said, introduce your friend to NRA's Colin Noir by way of the internet.

 

[Flymph]

I've not read all the posts in this thread, that said, introduce your friend to NRA's Colin Noir by way of the internet.

That's about the only NRA spokesman I'll listen to, and don't know the names of others. LoL

I'll beat the dead horse and just say that if you make no suspicious sudden moves and are respectful, you probably won't get shot. However, cops are people too and people sometimes make mistakes.

I do think it wise for anyone who owns a pistol to get a CHL regardless of whether they carry a gun or not.

 

[bgdawgrr]

Then you'd think I would have more encounters than I have. But, I still believe that nuclear families and a low unemployment are to blame more than anything. Minority families is this area are pretty well off.

Our biggest problems around here are the something-for-nothings, and narcotics trafficking. We have bad mental health issues here too, but I can't come to call the mentally ill a "problem". The lack of family support and MH resources is the problem.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth.
Being familiar with the area, No Regerts may not want to say it as it could be taken as inflammatory, but I'd contend the area outside the McCord gate, known as "Chocolate City" and Tillicum by the freeway he mentions as policing, used to be drug and gang central. It's cleaned up a lot, but if he's been an officer for more than a decade, I am personally very impressed at his statement. I can say I've had my hand on my carry or was in high alert many dozens of times. And that's visiting people I knew lived in the area.
Even at 20/60 split, I'd bet serious crimes were way more heavily slanted towards minority suspects.
Policing is a tough job. I don't believe the race baiting that police are on the lookout or hunt black males. Media inflames the stories so much and so quick.
I DO believe there may be predisposition that could impact a decision, usually against a minority. I also believe lots of profiling goes on. I am not against profiling.
For example, cop pulls over a $500 car with $2000 rims, sounds, and tinted windows. Driver has no license 8/10 times, is the profiling unjust? Hey, I've been the 2/10 that was all legal many times. Felt pissed about getting hassled, but I understand..I fit the profile.
Not sure if I'm making it clear how it feels to be a minority encountering police. Just one more perspective.
I will leave it at this. I highly doubt a white kid playing with a toy gun would get shot by police, but I can think of at least two black kids that did. I'm also 100% sure that was not those officers intent that day it happened.

 

[CLT65]

First you said you were sincerely curious about why your friend feels the way he does and were trying to understand a different perspective, then when presented with examples of why your friend might feel the way he does, you said you aren't going to change your view. Maybe just accept that your friend might have good reason to feel the way he does, that you don't feel the same way, and leave it at that. He has a right to his opinion, and he isn't necessarily wrong just because you don't agree.

Seriously? Why do you have such a hard time understanding your friends concern when you say this yourself. And your last sentence pretty much says you arent even going to try, or are capable of understanding your friend so this thread is pointless.

I think you guys completely missed my point. I wanted to understand his perspective, not necessarily agree with it. You don't have to agree with someone to understand their position. He believes that all cops are racist pigs out looking to blow away minorities. That is absurd, and no I will not change my mind about that because I know for a fact that it is not true.

If your point is that these tragic, unjust things do happen, that they are newsworthy events that someone with his background will hear and take to heart, then yes, I'm beginning to understand.

My takeaway from those stories is a cop with the wrong disposition to be a cop, poor training, whatever went wrong it's tragic and terrible. His takeaway is that all cops are racist pigs just waiting for a chance to blow away a minority.

I had a friend who hated "the police" - basically any form of law enforcement. He had only negative encounters with them, and it happened often. If there was a ticket to be written, he would get it. None of them cared about his side of the story. They were all out to get him. When the subject came up, he had plenty of rants against the police and stories about his interactions with them. I noticed a common theme - every time he "knew" they were going to "f with him" before the encounter even started. Every time he had something nasty to say to them. He would clench his jaws just talking to me about them. He really hated them and expected the worst from them. Eventually I also learned that he didn't care much for rules, laws or honest business dealings.

This has also been my experience, in general. Don't think that I'm sticking up for all law enforcement though. If anyone has a reason to distrust cops, it should be me. Personally I have a flawless record, and most of my interactions with police have been positive. There have been a few in my life where I thought the officer was an authoritarian jerk, but I was still polite and respectful, and it turned out fine. I also try to conscientiously follow the law in everything I do, so my interactions have been very minimal.

The big negative I refer to happened to a family member when I was much younger. He was assaulted and falsely arrested in his own home. He was completely innocent and the officer was completely wrong, for a fact. He was later exonerated and the arrest expunged, but there was never an apology and the officer never reprimanded. In fact the agency stood behind him, though he was clearly wrong. This is what concerns me still about police: more often than not the good ones seem to stick up for the bad ones. Maybe that's just my bias, based on my experience though.

It took me years to regain much trust for police. Now I have friends in law enforcement at several levels, and know that they are normal people like everyone else. I suspect that some agencies do a better job than others at weeding out the ones who shouldn't be there.

As to race issues and the police; clearly there's a lot there that won't be figured out overnight. Obviously there's a cultural problem in the inner cities, kids growing up without fathers or economic opportunities, and a high tolerance for crime. The sad reality is that in some areas most of the young, African-American men that interact with the police are into some bad stuff. The other sad reality is that because of this, all young black men will get extra scrutiny by the police, even those like my acquaintance who are hard-working, productive members of society. I can't fix that, but I can try to understand it. That's all I can do.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

He said he has a pistol, but he has no interest in ever carrying it or getting a CHL, because if a police officer ever saw him with it he would be shot dead because he is black.

I guess the real question he needs to ask himself is "Do I fit the description of a criminal?" That goes for any race. I would think that profiling is more dependent on style of dress, haircut, tattoos and demeanor along with when and where contact with the police is made.

Jason Washington was swatted by Shaggy in the camo jacket who lied and told the campus police "He pointed a gun at us". Jason Washington also did not follow the Rules of Stupid. DON'T (1) go to Stupid places, (2) with Stupid people, (3) at Stupid times, and (4) do Stupid things.

Philando Castile fit the description and his reactions may have been impaired from marijuana use. ToxScreen showed THC in his system, but that may have been from when he was seen sharing a joint with Diamond Reynolds on July 4, 2016 as seen in her video. Either way, that made him a prohibited person.

The other two guys are a perfect example of why you should not have anything in your hands when the police show up.

 

[bgdawgrr]

I guess the real question he needs to ask himself is "Do I fit the description of a criminal?" That goes for any race. I would think that profiling is more dependent on style of dress, haircut, tattoos and demeanor along with when and where contact with the police is made.

The problem is, sometimes being a minority IS taken as the description of a criminal.
Again, personal experience only, I've been pulled over in areas because the neighborhood officer "didn't recognize my car" and "wanted to know what I was doing there?"

I hope you can see how easily a situation like that could escalate.
I can only imagine the result if I tried some of those "I know my rights" videos some like to post on YouTube.

I thank God and my parents for blessing me and teaching me to have a very even temperament.

 

[CLT65]

Just an aside and not particularly relevant to the issue at hand: A friend of mine years ago helped me understand a little as to why cops often get that "cop attitude". He said that some get into law enforcement just because they like to have authority, but beyond that it's what they see and deal with day in and day out.

He said that the average law-abiding American sees the world in a certain way; we're rarely exposed to the seedy underbelly of humanity that they see every day. They get lied to, misled, and hated so often that they come to view anyone who isn't a "brother in blue" as a suspect. He told me some of the things he's seen over the years as a cop, pretty disturbing, disgusting stuff, some of it. That does NOT excuse bad behavior by police, but it does help me understand their perspective.

My friend Morris was a good cop. He started his law enforcement career in LA, then moved to rural Oregon because he and his wife thought it was a safer environment in his chosen profession. He was a heck of a nice guy, no "cop attitude" at all. He was active in his church and liked working with kids. He ended his career nearly 17 years ago, when a drugged-out dirtbag shot and killed him in rural Douglas county.

 

[CLT65]

The problem is, sometimes being a minority IS taken as the description of a criminal.
Again, personal experience only, I've been pulled over in areas because the neighborhood officer "didn't recognize my car" and "wanted to know what I was doing there?"

I hope you can see how easily a situation like that could escalate.
I can only imagine the result if I tried some of those "I know my rights" videos some like to post on YouTube.

I thank God and my parents for blessing me and teaching me to have a very even temperament.

Thank you for your posts, bgdawgrr. Your experience and perspective on the subject are very helpful.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

The problem is, sometimes being a minority IS taken as the description of a criminal.
Again, personal experience only, I've been pulled over in areas because the neighborhood officer "didn't recognize my car" and "wanted to know what I was doing there?"

I hope you can see how easily a situation like that could escalate.
I can only imagine the result if I tried some of those "I know my rights" videos some like to post on YouTube.

I thank God and my parents for blessing me and teaching me to have a very even temperament.

Was it a "crappy" car? When I was younger and could not afford a newer vehicle, I got pulled over all the time. One summer in Southern Oregon when I was really really tan I got pulled over for DWH, Driving While Hispanic. I never got any tickets. The same thing is happening now with my kids and their 20 year old cars. I tell them, look clean cut and be polite. Still no tickets.

 

[MannyGlocks]

Read what Jason Riley has to say about why blacks (I detest faddish hyphenated people descriptions) overly represent prison population.

btw, he's black...and I've read all of his books.

 

[CLT65]

(I detest faddish hyphenated people descriptions)

I'm not a PC person myself, but I've learned that sometimes it's respectful to use terminology that the other guy prefers. If my acquaintance prefers to hear "African-American" occasionally, I can respect that. I don't think of myself as "Mostly European-American with some Native American in the mix", but that's OK. I see no point in offending anyone, when it can be avoided.

 

[Jeedia]

If you dont pull/reach for/touch your gun, or fight the police you won't get shot. Follow their instructions. All of the individuals you listed were NOT law abiding citizens doing nothing.

 

[BSG 75]

I don't think of myself as "Mostly European-American with some Native American in the mix",

Is that you, Elizabeth?

 

[MannyGlocks]

Going 'sycophantic' isn't my way of living my life.

I'm not racist or a sycophant.

Fad references aren't something I bow to.

Can't deal with that?

Life is hard and then ...

 

[BSG 75]

If you dont pull/reach for/touch your gun, or fight the police you won't get shot. Follow their instructions. All of the individuals you listed were NOT law abiding citizens doing nothing.

Did you even read the stories?

• One guy was trying to break up a fight between other people. That isn't a crime.
• Another guy heard shots and was running away from the sound of the shots. He never drew his weapon.
• The bouncer returned fire after some guy came into his club and started shooting. The bouncer apprehended the suspect and then was mistakenly shot by police.
• Castille was pulled over during a traffic stop. If he wanted to shoot the officer why did he politely inform the officer that he was carrying a firearm? The officer panicked and shot Castille, and was later fired by his agency.

 

[bgdawgrr]

Was it a "crappy" car? When I was younger and could not afford a newer vehicle, I got pulled over all the time. One summer in Southern Oregon when I was really really tan I got pulled over for DWH, Driving While Hispanic. I never got any tickets. The same thing is happening now with my kids and their 20 year old cars. I tell them, look clean cut and be polite. Still no tickets.

I've gotten it all over the board lol, but never had a crappy car. I've had the '79 Monte Carlo SS with triple gold Dayton's. That hit the profile big time in my area, especially when the LA gangs moved in to WA.
When I was a senior in HS, I got a new Mustang GT 5.0. (Actually, the first one in the area cause my mom was good friends with the Ford dealer) Ironically, never got a speeding ticket, but pulled over almost daily until I got the windows tinted cause I "looked too young" to have that car. Had to hear lots of cop stories about how they couldn't afford that car and how they wondered how l did?
The "neighborhood" incident was really ironic to me cause I was driving a C350 Benze, actually pretty common to that neighborhood.
Hell, sometimes you can call it. I was driving through Algona/Pacific a few years back I left work and had to pick up a package at UPS. Driving a Denali XL on 26" rims. As I'm rolling through town, I stop at a four way. See an officer to the right. I'm on the phone with two of my employees at the time. I say I may have to get off the phone cause I bet I'm gonna get pulled over. It's the officers turn, but he doesn't go. I go straight and he turns right and gets behind me. Speed limit is 30 and I'm telling them I'm gonna go 25. Even video it. 3 blocks later, blue lights. I hang up the speaker call, wait for the officer. Officer asks if I know why he pulled me over? (Yes, DWB but let's keep the crazy on the inside). No sir, I don't. "Speeding. The limit is 30". Yes sir, I was doing 25. "Nope, paced you at 40. Maybe those big rims throw off your speedometer. Anyone hiding in back?"
I literally had to laugh out loud after that one. He actually cited me. I won that in court with my video.
I would have been much more nervous at night. Bet he would have asked if I had any weapons in the car..

Thing is, I try to take everything with a grain of salt. Maybe my laughing caused me to get that ticket. I really expected a warning. But then again, maybe they needed the revenue and my rig was not local.