Safety considerations while carrying

[CLT65]

To kind of wrap this thread up, for myself at least, I'll say that I can see where he's coming from now. I honestly don't think he's at greater risk "carrying while black", especially here in the northwest, and given his calm demeanor and lifestyle, but all things considered I think I can at least understand his concern.

I have no doubt that there are police officers out there that shouldn't have a badge (I've seen it myself), and I don't question that racially motivated discrimination and violence still occur. It's the current level of prevalence of these things that people debate. We all have different perspectives from different experiences, growing up in different worlds.

I don't know what happened to/around him to cause him to hate police with the passion that he does, but he has talked some about the criminal stuff that he grew up around, that was commonplace and acceptable among people he knew: petty theft, drugs, burglary, shoplifting, etc.. It's easy for me to condemn that lifestyle and behavior, but a lot of kids grow up in that culture never knowing any better. One incident of horrible police misbehavior shook my world when I was young, and it took me many years to come around to a reasonable level of trust in the system again. It's probably too much to expect him to change his views very much. He feels safer not carrying, and that is his choice. To each their own.

On a similar note, there's another young black man who attends our church. He sits in a front pew with his family, and is clearly not ashamed to be packing, a full-size pistol that prints badly! I don't know him, never had the chance to talk to him, but a friend of mine (police officer) noticed too. I think he casually talked to him about it, politely mentioned that he might want to keep it covered up a little better so as not to alarm the little old ladies.

 

[Core]

I

I hesitate to post about this because it's a subject that has a strong possibility to go in any number of bad directions. If any mod feels it's not appropriate or it's going sideways, I won't feel at all offended if it's moved or locked. Please, Please, if posting to this thread, I'd very much rather avoid inappropriate racial or cop bashing comments.

An acquaintance and I were talking guns. He said he has a pistol, but he has no interest in ever carrying it or getting a CHL, because if a police officer ever saw him with it he would be shot dead because he is black.

He's a law-abiding, hard working family man, no criminal record (passed his BGC), seems like a good guy. He has a very strong negative opinion of police officers, I guess because of where he grew up. Personally I respect police officers in general (and have friends in that line of work), but I can respect his opinion and the fact that if he doesn't feel he should carry then he probably shouldn't, and I find it difficult to understand the fear that "the cops" are going to shoot him over nothing. He even jokes about how cops love to shoot minorities, and get high-fives from their peers and medals from their superiors when they do. Personally I find that very offensive, but like I said, he seems like a good guy, and I'd like to try to understand his perspective. I'd like to think that a law abiding person of any ethnicity should be able to exercise their right to bear arms without fear (whether real or imagined).

Growing up in rural Oregon, I was raised with a well-intentioned but likely naive perspective on racial issues. I understand that such issues are complex and many of us are likely to see them radically different. I don't care to delve into all that, but I am curious if any others here have ever had similar fears, or if anyone feels he has anything to really worry about. My curiosity is sincere and I'm just trying to understand a different perspective. I doubt I'd ever be able to say anything to change his mind or lessen his hatred/fear of cops, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestions.

I've traveled the world: race, nationality, ethnicity, religion, and sexual orientation can get you killed depending on the regional geopolitics. Understanding the status quo is important to one's survival no matter where you are. It's not discreet to race. Humans can be horrible destructive monsters and alternatively the most nurturing and divine of all creatures. Carrying a gun is a constitutional right in the US, and all people have the divine and constitutional right to defend life and limb. There are ways you can dress, carry yourself, and speak to dispell fearful stereotypes and in turn prevent yourself from being profiled or feared. Or blend in, however you want to be perceived. Dress like a criminal or gangster and you'll likely be treated as such. If you're a black man and you get pulled over and you're carrying concealed, you might not want to advertise it unless you are asked and when asked let them know you have a permit and carry legally. Sadly many police in the city are under too much stress and used to dealing with the bad people, so they tend to overreact. It's poor training and selection. It's unfair to assume all police are idiots with poor training, but don't act a fool and you'll probably be fine. Break the stigma through knowledge.

 

[crstrode]

Anyone as downright deluded as the original poster's "friend" is a serious danger to society and should be denied all access to any firearms until his psychoses are mitigated in a psychiatric treatment facility.

 

[raylo]

I really liked the Chris Rock video on the first reply. That sums it up.
Most cops today are more cautious as far as dealing with 'black' people because they are under such scrutiny. Statistically a black man is more likely to be shot by another black man than by a cop or a white person for that matter. Those are facts acknowledged by prominent black activists. At least the ones that are educated and aware of the reality of their surroundings.
The patron that was shot by the PSU campus cops is a very sad story but all of us with CC that have had the training and watched the events unfold on the news saw that the victim made NUMEROUS mistakes, the final being not putting down a gun when two policemen with guns pointed at him commanded him to do so. The victim seemed like a very likeable guy, a real Dudley Dooright mentality. Somebody some of us might be a friend of. But he made at least three major mistakes and you can figure out the other two that I didn't point out.
If ANYONE is pointing a loaded gun at you, you are not pointing one at them, they have not yet shot you and they tell you to put down the weapon, the best choice is to put down the weapon, period! Even if the ANYONE is a robber/mugger.
A possible exception to that might be that the person pointing the gun at you is known to capture and slow torture people to death and you know that your best chance for survival is to hope you can beat him to the draw/shot but I'm reaching, aren't I?
I think as long as your friend follows proper protocol he is in no more relative danger than any of the rest of us regardless of skin color. Police have a very different attitude towards CC's. They are extremely comfortable and trusting of us from my experience and I have some friends that have long hair, tatts galore, dress like heavy metal musicians (because they are) and have noticed the same thing I have as far as how CC's are treated by cops.

 

[Mountainman38]

As a little anecdote, I can count the number of black men I've ever had at gunpoint on my fingers.

I dont think I could count the number of white men Ive had at gunpoint per year on my fingers and toes.

Do I hate white folks? No.

I hope you are some kind of law enforcement officer. This post would make more sense.

 

[No_Regerts]

I hope you are some kind of law enforcement officer. This post would make more sense.

Yeah, should have clarified. Or Tony Soprano.

 

[Kruel J]

Yeah, should have clarified. Or Tony Soprano.

LOL

 

[nwslopoke]

All cops are not equal. Face it, some are horrible racist and some are complete angels. I've dealt with both. The cops I've dealt with in Oregon are not the LAPD. Completely different animal. Even though I've had a more positive relationship with law enforcement here, I live in a better area and am older.

A traffic stop in some places across America can be a death sentence for black and brown people whether you believe it or not. I have real examples.

 

[shibbershabber]

The number one thing he should consider...

Is he able to get that chip off his shoulder while carrying?

That is the one thing many dont consider.

I have been hassled and even harassed by the police in my younger days. Who knows why... I am white, Im supposed to have it easy right?. Things are tense enough as it is... though it may go for pointing out that 2/3 of people killed by police are white.... the whole black people being targeted thing is based off of percentage of the population and not sheer numbers.

Can he handle a traffic stop with a retail customer service attitude? Thats #1

Doesnt matter what your race is, if you start flipping the cop grief because youre unhappy about being stopped, its only down hill from there.

There are plenty of times I have been stopped and the cop already had his mind made up about me before even getting out of the car... based on my appearance of how my car looked.

Lets be honest. we all know when we are getting pulled over or are being approached by an officer... have your ID, CHL and Ins. out BEFORE the cop approaches the car. ID in one hand, CHL in the other... both hands out the window as he approaches.

This way, your hands are visible right away, you are letting the officer know what the situation is right away as well. Ive found that it really diffuses the situation and a few times I didnt even get cited. Doing this changes the perspective of the cop from, "Im gonna write this guy a ticket" to, "bubblegum, this guy is armed, is he cool?" ... Once he sees that you are not a threat and a 'good guy' it really relaxes the situation, Ive found. Havent had any bad interactions while carrying.

Again, get those hands out asap... talk to the officer like a customer. Wins every time.

 

[No_Regerts]

All cops are not equal. Face it, some are horrible racist and some are complete angels. I've dealt with both. The cops I've dealt with in Oregon are not the LAPD. Completely different animal. Even though I've had a more positive relationship with law enforcement here, I live in a better area and am older.

A traffic stop in some places across America can be a death sentence for black and brown people whether you believe it or not. I have real examples.

So....

1,000,000 comissioned officers nationwide....

2,088,000,000 hours of policing....

An average of 950 to 1000 deaths by police annually of ALL races....

So about one death per 2 million hours of policing....

I think the "black and brown people" are pretty safe. But your imagination knows no bounds.

 

[slimmer13]

So....

1,000,000 comissioned officers nationwide....

2,088,000,000 hours of policing....

An average of 950 to 1000 deaths by police annually of ALL races....

So about one death per 2 million hours of policing....

I think the "black and brown people" are pretty safe. But your imagination knows no bounds.

Real numbers mean nothing next to anecdotes and feelings.

 

[Alexx1401]

Real numbers mean nothing next to anecdotes and feelings.

YEP, not to mention the "I hate all Cops" is a religion to many people. Facts are not allowed in, they have a "faith" they believe in. It's why so many of them get angry when confronted with facts. They have a belief and they desperately want it to be true.

 

[nwslopoke]

Real numbers mean nothing next to anecdotes and feelings.

You are correct. Real number mean nothing when I am the one at gun point for standing on my front porch. Not once but on two separate occasions. Again, standing.

When you are approached at gun point in broad LA sunshine, before any questions are asked, it's fair to build an opinion. Feel free to assign any statistic or study you like. I'm just saying from my original post that some cops are bad and some cops are nice.

 

[Core]

Real numbers mean nothing next to anecdotes and feelings.

I study cognitive analysis and collective intelligence and us Humans are extremely anecdotal, and we tend to ignore facts in the presence of absolutely anything that attracts our attention or appeals to us more than fact and empirical data.

 

[raylo]

YEP, not to mention the "I hate all Cops" is a religion to many people. Facts are not allowed in, they have a "faith" they believe in. It's why so many of them get angry when confronted with facts. They have a belief and they desperately want it to be true.

The ones that hate all cops only hate them until they need one. Especially if the cop equalizes a scenario in the cop hater's favor. I've found that most people are not very committed to the belief systems they preach. How many atheists do you know that constantly say 'Oh my God!'. Just sayin'....

 

[CLT65]

I study cognitive analysis and collective intelligence and us Humans are extremely anecdotal, and we tend to ignore facts in the presence of absolutely anything that attracts our attention or appeals to us more than fact and empirical data.

I believe it. As an amateur student of human nature, there is one strong conclusion that I have come to: we believe what we want to believe.

Young or old, rich or poor, conservative or liberal, educated or ignorant, highly intelligent or dumb-as-a-post; we all ultimately believe what we choose to believe. How often do you see intelligent, educated people on opposite sides of an issue? All the time. We tend to believe as we want to, and then trust sources of information that reinforce our beliefs.

You hear people say things like "I'm too smart to believe (whatever)". To me a statement like that is a sign of ignorance. For whatever it is that you claim you're too smart to believe, I could probably find a dozen people measurable more intelligent that believe it, no matter what it is: politics, religion, medicine, science, etc.. I've found that once I realized these simple basics about human belief, it helped me to better examine and understand my own beliefs.

 

[Flopsweat]

The ones that hate all cops only hate them until they need one. Especially if the cop equalizes a scenario in the cop hater's favor. I've found that most people are not very committed to the belief systems they preach. How many atheists do you know that constantly say 'Oh my God!'. Just sayin'....

Bender agrees.

 

[Core]

I believe it. As an amateur student of human nature, there is one strong conclusion that I have come to: we believe what we want to believe.

Young or old, rich or poor, conservative or liberal, educated or ignorant, highly intelligent or dumb-as-a-post; we all ultimately believe what we choose to believe. How often do you see intelligent, educated people on opposite sides of an issue? All the time. We tend to believe as we want to, and then trust sources of information that reinforce our beliefs.

You hear people say things like "I'm too smart to believe (whatever)". To me a statement like that is a sign of ignorance. For whatever it is that you claim you're too smart to believe, I could probably find a dozen people measurable more intelligent that believe it, no matter what it is: politics, religion, medicine, science, etc.. I've found that once I realized these simple basics about human belief, it helped me to better examine and understand my own beliefs.

Absolutely, it doesn't take much for the media or a sharp tongue to use half truths to manipulate us. No one is immune to manipulation, and enculturated preconceptions tend to be an easy pathway to winning over our hearts and minds.

 

[CLT65]

Another little life-truth to remember is that the most successful lies always contain a strong element of truth. It's easy to get sucked into a big lie because the truth in it is so enticing.

 

[raylo]

Bender agrees.

Comedian Bill Hicks said ''...and on the 7th day God said 'Oh my Me' "