Portland Ofc. shoots 12yr old girl with bean bag.

[sparkly_flea]

Glad to see someone is awake! My comment was cryptic but that's what you get at midnight.

What I should have said was she is lucky she was not more seriously injured or killed. Once the situation escalates to a confrontation between her and the police all bets are off. You don't know if she's armed, drugged, crazy, stupid or all of the above. You don't know if some Max passenger is going to get off the train and "save" her from the police or if she has ten "friends" in the crowd. What if the cop is having a bad day? Once you have put yourself in the position of a combatant you just don't know what the situation will turn into. Crazier things have happened.

I'm sure once this troubled preteen receives some counseling she'll be back on the path to being a molecular biologist.

Now you can call me stupid.

 

[JAFO]

Glad to see someone is awake! My comment was cryptic but that's what you get at midnight.

What I should have said was she is lucky she was not more seriously injured or killed. Once the situation escalates to a confrontation between her and the police all bets are off. You don't know if she's armed, drugged, crazy, stupid or all of the above. You don't know if some Max passenger is going to get off the train and "save" her from the police or if she has ten "friends" in the crowd. What if the cop is having a bad day? Once you have put yourself in the position of a combatant you just don't know what the situation will turn into. Crazier things have happened.

I'm sure once this troubled preteen receives some counseling she'll be back on the path to being a molecular biologist.

Now you can call me stupid.

"What if" is what causes problems like this.

Law Enforcement is trained to look for the worst case scenario. They are cautious and treat most interaction with the public in a way that they keep an eye out for it turning into the worst case scenario. There is nothing wrong with that but there is also nothing wrong with non-law enforcement keeping an eye out for the worst case scenario, like an abuse of power. There is public outcry over her being shot with a bean bag and there is LEO outcry over him being suspended pending an investigation. What is wrong with there being an investigation? Because this one officer's actions are being questioned officially doesn't mean all officer's actions are. They are by the public but like I said, that goes both ways. That is the way our country is. We are equal opportunity criticizers.

If you can't take criticizm the internet, the world, real life, and law enforcement probably aren't for you.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

They used less than Lethal force.....

Could have Glocked her...

She is OK today because they followed proper protocal so all the Monday morning quarterbacks go soak you heads.

 

[JAFO]

They used less than Lethal force.....

Could have Glocked her...

She is OK today because they followed proper protocal so all the Monday morning quarterbacks go soak you heads.

So your Tuesday Morning Commentary is all that is needed?

Are you sure it is proper protocol to use a shotgun with bean bags at point blank range on someone who is face down and already in the grips of an officer?

Thanks. I'm glad you got here to clear it all up.

 

[sparkly_flea]

"What if" is what causes problems like this.

Law Enforcement is trained to look for the worst case scenario. They are cautious and treat most interaction with the public in a way that they keep an eye out for it turning into the worst case scenario. There is nothing wrong with that but there is also nothing wrong with non-law enforcement keeping an eye out for the worst case scenario, like an abuse of power. There is public outcry over her being shot with a bean bag and there is LEO outcry over him being suspended pending an investigation. What is wrong with there being an investigation? Because this one officer's actions are being questioned officially doesn't mean all officer's actions are. They are by the public but like I said, that goes both ways. That is the way our country is. We are equal opportunity criticizers.

If you can't take criticizm the internet, the world, real life, and law enforcement probably aren't for you.

Agreed. We are definitely equal opportunity criticizers.

 

[Mutoman]

I think one thing that I have not considered in this scenario, is the maturity level of the girl. As an adult, I know better than to fight with an officer; I know that fighting would only lead to further complications and some jail time for me. However, a 12 year-old may have not reached that level of rational thinking and may have reverted to the fight-or-flight instinct rather than the learned "conform or be punished" behavior that most of us adults are familiar with. Just a thought, she may have been fighting out of fear or a combination of, yet the other factors involved suggest some association with other irrational or criminal behavior; perhaps we should wait until a proper investigation has occurred before jumping to conclusions.

I know myself that sometimes police officers can react unprofessional to some situations, as do all of us in our own lives. I also know that most police officers are in the profession because they want to be helpful in bettering society and that their intentions are mostly honorable. I also see the importance of weeding out those officers who cannot handle the stresses, pressures, and situations of the profession, and that it is important for citizens, like those of us on this forum, to speak out when we think that our leaders are failing to recognize and respond to any officer or public official acting in an unreasonable manner.

Heck, we are all different here, which is what makes this forum a pretty cool place to hash out opinions. Some of the responses are clearly influenced by anti-establishment, anti-authority, and anti-police beliefs, while some of the responses are clearly on the other side of the spectrum. Somewhere in-between the two is probably where the truth lies. Let's hope that those in charge find it.

I come from a police background; I worked with many different personalities in the field. I have to admit that some of them worried me; however, the truth was always our goal and our leaders made sure of it. I know where these guys and gals are coming from and personally weigh on the side of the officer when things are unclear. Do we pat them on the back and send them back out into the public? Heck no, find the truth first.

 

[PosterGuy]

I have to admit, I just now, finally, watched the video. Those who think the cop was justified are complete morons. Sorry, had to say it. Anyone who actually HAS been in a REAL life or death apprehension/detention would agree. This cop got an adrenaline rush and got carried away. I say give him a reprimand and a return to duty after a suspension.

 

[Randini]

I think one thing that I have not considered in this scenario, is the maturity level of the girl. As an adult, I know better than to fight with an officer; I know that fighting would only lead to further complications and some jail time for me. However, a 12 year-old may have not reached that level of rational thinking and may have reverted to the fight-or-flight instinct rather than the learned "conform or be punished" behavior that most of us adults are familiar with. Just a thought, she may have been fighting out of fear or a combination of, yet the other factors involved suggest some association with other irrational or criminal behavior; perhaps we should wait until a proper investigation has occurred before jumping to conclusions.

I know myself that sometimes police officers can react unprofessional to some situations, as do all of us in our own lives. I also know that most police officers are in the profession because they want to be helpful in bettering society and that their intentions are mostly honorable. I also see the importance of weeding out those officers who cannot handle the stresses, pressures, and situations of the profession, and that it is important for citizens, like those of us on this forum, to speak out when we think that our leaders are failing to recognize and respond to any officer or public official acting in an unreasonable manner.

Heck, we are all different here, which is what makes this forum a pretty cool place to hash out opinions. Some of the responses are clearly influenced by anti-establishment, anti-authority, and anti-police beliefs, while some of the responses are clearly on the other side of the spectrum. Somewhere in-between the two is probably where the truth lies. Let's hope that those in charge find it.

I come from a police background; I worked with many different personalities in the field. I have to admit that some of them worried me; however, the truth was always our goal and our leaders made sure of it. I know where these guys and gals are coming from and personally weigh on the side of the officer when things are unclear. Do we pat them on the back and send them back out into the public? Heck no, find the truth first.

Now heres a post that I can agree with

 

[Chee-to]

"Now you know why it''s called ''less lethal'' and not ''non-lethal,''

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...big-punch-But-require-lots-of-extra-training/

Less lethal weapons still pack a big punch; But require lots of extra training

The Seattle Post-Intelligencer

They are neon orange, shoot beanbags and look like toys, but the newest Remington shotguns some Seattle cops now wield are the latest tools in the city''s arsenal of less lethal weapons.

As of last week, 16 patrol officers began carrying the new weapons, the final stage of a plan to give police options besides deadly force when dealing with mentally ill, drugged or just plain violent people.

"The whole less-lethal program has been phenomenal for us," police Chief Gil Kerlikowske said, noting that there were no fatal shootings involving police officers in Seattle last year.

"That''s the first time in 15 years," he said.

But Kerlikowske, other law enforcement officers and even some in the community who have wanted less lethal weapons caution that just because the weapons are not designed to kill, it doesn''t mean they won''t.

And it doesn''t mean a police officer won''t ever have to use deadly force.

"It''s certainly not a panacea," firearms instructor Sgt. Pete Verhaar said of the beanbag shotguns. "It certainly has its limitations."

For years, the tools the average patrol officer had at his or her disposal remained unchanged, Kerlikowske said.

"We were still using the same things - sticks and guns," he said, referring to the side arms and batons that officers traditionally carry.

But in the 1990s, Seattle police officers were involved in some high-profile shootings. One was the 1999 shooting death of David Walker, a mentally ill man armed with a knife.

He had earlier robbed juice from a nearby store and fired two errant shots from a handgun.

Many in the community felt police were too quick to shoot Walker, and pressure mounted to find less lethal ways for dealing with dangerous people, particularly the mentally ill.

In October 2000, city officials approved spending $350,000 to buy Tasers and beanbag shotguns and to begin a program to give officers a better way of dealing with people going through a mental health crisis.

Crisis intervention training was already under way at the time, teaching officers enhanced verbal skills to deal with mentally disturbed people. At the time Walker died, about 120 officers had received the training.

After the shooting, there was a renewed commitment to expand the program to 200 patrol officers trained in the 40-hour course.

The department exceeded that goal. By the end of the first year, 214 officers were trained and there was a waiting list of more officers who wanted to learn the crisis intervention methods.

Kerlikowske said he recently watched a trained officer handle a disturbed man by literally talking him into an ambulance.

"It was so impressive to see that level of skill," he said.

The Tasers that some patrol officers carry were bought in late 2000, but the city''s SWAT officers had Tasers available years earlier.

Shaped like boxy flashlights, they were rarely used, said Officer Chris Myers, who trains other officers in the use of the Tasers.

"They sat on the shelf forever," Myers said.

The newer ones were M26 Tasers, shaped like handguns so officers had a ready feel for them. They fired two probes up to 21 feet, were carried in an extra holster officers wore on their thigh, and ran on 8 AA batteries available just about anywhere.

Still, officers were initially reluctant to use them.

"It started off pretty slow," Myers said.

By the end of the first year, 158 officers carried the M26 Tasers, but some left them in the holster. Taser incidents in 2001 totaled just 103.

Ken Saucier, president of the Seattle Police Officers Guild, said officers are often reluctant to use new equipment, especially in volatile situations.

"If we make a mistake, we''re dead," he said. "For us, it''s not a game. It''s not an experiment."

Even tools now standard for officers became widely used only gradually, Saucier said.

"I remember when we first got pepper spray. We''d get into knockdown, drag-out fights, forgetting we had it on our belt," he said. "It was so new, you just kept forgetting you had it."

With Tasers, their use grew as word spread among the rank and file that the device frequently did what it promised: stopped people in their tracks.

Last year, 220 officers carried Tasers and used them 428 times.

The department soon plans to turn in its M26 Tasers for a new model, the X26 Taser, smaller, lighter and more effective. They''re so small, Myers said, a plain-clothes detective could easily carry one.

And now there are the beanbag shotguns.

The department bought 130 of the Remington shotguns in 2000, but had trouble finding ammunition they felt gave the best chance for a non-lethal use.

The department uses a yellow Kevlar sack resembling a sock. It''s rounded, unlike other types that have flat edges and can penetrate a person. Those have been known to be fatal.

The bags are fired at 280 feet per second, packing a punch comparable to being hit by a major league pitcher''s fastball, Myers said.

He demonstrated the power of the bag on the cinderblock wall of the department firing range office.

From five yards away, closer than the gun would be used in an actual situation, Myers hit the same spot on the wall three times. The third shot punched a hole the size of a half-dollar through the cinderblock.

"Now you know why it''s called ''less lethal'' and not ''non-lethal,''" Verhaar said.

The officers who carry the less lethal shotguns - all volunteers - had to learn to judge distances. Officers must be between 21 and 45 feet away from the subject when firing a beanbag.

And instead of aiming for the center mass of the body, beanbag shotguns are aimed at the abdomen, thighs or forearms - marked green on the training targets.

"The red areas are lethal targets," Verhaar said, pointing to the head and chest.

Officers with beanbag shotguns don''t carry patrol shotguns. The department doesn''t want officers confusing their training and inadvertently aiming a beanbag at a lethal spot.

The rules for using the beanbag shotgun in the field are strict: There must be a sergeant present, armed officers to provide cover, and other officers prepared to make the arrest.

The officer firing the beanbag must announce that he is going to shoot.

The shotguns are expected to be used in situations similar to those handled with Tasers - violent crimes, drug- and alcohol-related incidents, fights, and calls involving mentally disturbed people.

"They''re the ones we don''t want to get close enough to, to use the Taser," Myers said.

Verhaar said the best news for the less lethal program will be the improved training.

Despite what police see as the success of the less lethal program, issues remain about the use of the equipment.

For example, last year, 45 percent of the people struck with Tasers were black, while 42 percent were white. That approximate ratio has been true since the Tasers first came into use among patrol officers.

Some call those statistics alarming, since the 2000 U.S. Census found that blacks make up 8 percent of the city''s population while whites make up 68 percent.

"That''s way out of line," said Dustin Washington with the People''s Coalition for Justice. "Less lethal weapons are a step in the right direction. But they''re not the ultimate victory."

Harriet Walden with Mothers for Police Accountability is disturbed by another statistic: Of the people struck with the Tasers last year, just 14 percent were mentally disturbed.

That percentage seems low to Walden, who said she believed Tasers would be used predominantly on people in a mental-health crisis, not just to make troublesome people comply with officers'' orders.
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Sometimes, the devices simply don''t work. Seattle police have shot and killed at least one man, Shawn Maxwell, after Taser strikes proved ineffective on him, possibly because of the heavy clothing he wore.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

Glad I could clear that up for you!

 

[ZachS]

They used less than Lethal force.....

Could have Glocked her...

No, they couldn't have. She was not threatening anybody with death or serious injury. An officer who shot a young woman (or, really, anybody short of a large man) in such circumstances would face criminal charges. Even in Portland.

 

[Teufel_Hunden]

You missed the point.....I'm not saying they should have or even could have legally Glocked her......but if you fight the police, its a possiblilty!

She was stupid and I don't have any symapthy for her. I was just saying she's lucky! Things can get escalated and sometimes those who do not deserve lethal force get it anyway!

 

[ZachS]

I know myself that sometimes police officers can react unprofessional to some situations, as do all of us in our own lives. I also know that most police officers are in the profession because they want to be helpful in bettering society and that their intentions are mostly honorable. I also see the importance of weeding out those officers who cannot handle the stresses, pressures, and situations of the profession, and that it is important for citizens, like those of us on this forum, to speak out when we think that our leaders are failing to recognize and respond to any officer or public official acting in an unreasonable manner.

This is it, exactly - it's a hard job, and not for everybody, but it seems like it's impossible for a police officer to get fired for anything short of felonious behavior. There's no dishonor in trying your best to serve society and finding out that you just don't have the personality for it. Teaching is similar.

I mean, fast food cashiers can and do get fired every day for being short a few bucks in their registers - but teachers and cops can be grossly incompetent for decades, damage hundreds or thousands of people they come into contact with, and still retire early with fat pensions.

 

[Murphy]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[The B]

no symphathy for anyone.. not the stupid 12 year old twit, not the officers who couldn't get her under control without a beanbag round, not the city, not the agency. Portland has made it's bed with bad choice after bad choice. so many lines have been drawn in so many proverbial sands that nobody can tell where the **** anyone stands on anything. the cops cant trust their chief or leadership in general, the bureau cant trust the city, the citizens cant trust either.

if you gonna work for that agency or live in that city, expect stupid crap to happen to you.

 

[gunnoob75]

Great post, bkb.

 

[USMC1911]

no symphathy for anyone.. not the stupid 12 year old twit, not the officers who couldn't get her under control without a beanbag round, not the city, not the agency. Portland has made it's bed with bad choice after bad choice. so many lines have been drawn in so many proverbial sands that nobody can tell where the **** anyone stands on anything. the cops cant trust their chief or leadership in general, the bureau cant trust the city, the citizens cant trust either.

if you gonna work for that agency or live in that city, expect stupid crap to happen to you.

Funny and o so sad all at the same time....

So when is the PPB's "NEW" use of "less-lethal force" policy gonna come out?
Any guess on how it will change?

 

[Mutoman]

no symphathy for anyone.. not the stupid 12 year old twit, not the officers who couldn't get her under control without a beanbag round, not the city, not the agency. Portland has made it's bed with bad choice after bad choice. so many lines have been drawn in so many proverbial sands that nobody can tell where the **** anyone stands on anything. the cops cant trust their chief or leadership in general, the bureau cant trust the city, the citizens cant trust either.

if you gonna work for that agency or live in that city, expect stupid crap to happen to you.

Lol, sounds like it's time to push the button!

Hey, I live in Coos County, it's not the police or the bureaucrats causing problems, it's families killing each other.

 

[clearconscience]

K, now that everyone is p-ed off at each other,

For me it comes down to one thing,
Your either with the good guys or the bad guys?
There's one of each in this video.

I personally would fight on the side of the cop than of some dirtbag teen that would knock down an old lady to steal her purse in a second.

Some of you want to argue the cops used too much force, but she suffered no injuries, and that shot made her comply.

I knew this post would result in people's feelings getting hurt and people getting angry, myself included.
I guess I only see the black and white. Good or bad. I've riden on the max at night and it's no where I want to be without a gun. These cops deal with pieces of crap and have to show a ridiculous amount of restraint. Are they supposed to be super human? No. Their people like you and me. Only their the ones in the street with some dirtbag yelling in their face. I couldn't do it. Could you?
Why do you think they can handle the worst society has to throw at it because they go through a 6 week training?

Either way it's easy to type on a computer and bash the cops, say they were wrong, or act tough about the teen. But we weren't there, and we didn't have to deal with it. I admit I'm bad at being a typing tough guy, but there's no way I could do the job they do and not end up in cuffs myself. So I have to stick by them for doing the almost impossible job they do, In a city that hates them.

From me to all the LEOs, past and present.

THANK YOU!

 

[ZachS]

Interesting email from a PPB officer who supports this shooting, but thinks that Humphries should not have been anywhere near a situation like that:

http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/letter.pdf