Portland Ofc. shoots 12yr old girl with bean bag.

[bugeye]

Personally, I think all the Portland cops should go on strike for a few days and let the know it all liberals protect themselves. I am sure with their high level of intelligence and persuasve speaking ablity they can just talk the bad guys out of it ...no violence required.

This wacky idea you righties have that liberals are incapable of defending themselves, their families, their neighbors, their town, and their country is both absurd and ignorant.

In this case the cops did OK, but in others they don't, they need to be held to a high standard, and they are.

 

[gunnoob75]

This wacky idea that you liberals have that you can defend yourselves, your families, your neighbors, your town and your country without the firearms your elected officials would like to take away is absurd and ignorant.

Keep it on topic, Bugeye. We don't need poo slinging in every thread.

 

[bugeye]

This wacky idea that you liberals have that you can defend yourselves, your families, your neighbors, your town and your country without the firearms your elected officials would like to take away is absurd and ignorant.

Keep it on topic, Bugeye. We don't need poo slinging in every thread.

Your great paranoia on display again.
As I've said before the GOP gets your votes with a few easy words, but betrayal is basic to all politics, failure to get that lesson makes you both easy prey and easy pickings.

OK, on topic, anyone know the velocity, weight and force of a bean bag shotgun fired at close range? I just found some offered for sale at

<broken link removed>

at they say they are for heavily clothed persons at 7 yards! Is this similar to what was used by the police?

 

[tionico]

This wacky idea that you liberals have that you can defend yourselves, your families, your neighbors, your town and your country without the firearms your elected officials would like to take away is absurd and ignorant.


wakejoe is on it. Times, rhetoric, pleading, reasoning, all fail in the face of someone determined to do harm. "Greater force" is, in some times and places, the ONLY language understood by those bent on doing harm.

I laugh (cry?) whenever I hear of some naif politicians thinking the answer to international conflicts is "talk". I like what a former president used to say.. "speak softly and carry a big stick". Schoolyard bullies tend to listen better once they see the stick. Twelve year old girls, never having learnt how to control themselves, often pay better attention once the beanbag hits. Bank robbers, muggers, rapists, somehow have a propensity of paying attention to orders to "stop that" when, rather than calling 911, their intended victim calls 357 or 9mm.

Look at England, again.... sure, not too many gun crimes..... compared to us. But, when the population is (per the local fantasy) disarmed, there are a LOT. BUT--- knife crimes in Jolly Auld are skyrocketing, out of control. Or Mexico, again, a "disarmed" population. More Mexican citizens have been shot and killed in the past two years (whilst IN Mexico) than in the whole of the Iraq war, military and civilian combined.

Is there a pattern here? Raise children to not respect life, teach them they can "find themselves" on their own, and let them...... disarm the population.... leave all peacekeeping to the government........ and the best business to get into would be either a casketmaker or an undertaker. Until someone figures out you're making money, and the last box you built is used to plant you.

And you want me to agree that such uncontrollable delinquents as that twelve year old girl were mistreated? Sorry, not paying anything for that one. I personally think Max should rescind their policy of no guns.... and allow concealed carry anywhere. Then, after a few times a presented handgun is used to put a stop to the sort of conduct these thugs seem to think is normal, maybe word would get round that they need to find other entertainment. Sure, a few of them would carry on the Max as well.... but my conviction is they already are. Trouble is, no law abiding citizens are. So it falls to the cops to try and accost the abusive as they leave the train...... and suffer the consequences of a public that holds the position that an out of control teenage thug is a higher moral value than a cop exercising restraint whilst subduing such, and bringing them to account for their conduct.

I maintain my earlier position: perhaps, should public opinion roast this keeper of the peace, the appropriate action for the other officers would be to strike...... and let the public reap the real fruit of their "values".

Some have cited this officer's "prior record": if anything, having been under close scrutiny in a prior incident, this man was even more conscious of his decisions, not wanting to go through the trial of public opinion yet again. As my friend who is a member of PPB said, this man followed department training and protocol to the letter. And did so in a VERY stressful situation. I can understand why he is "stressed". Perhaps in fear of his own life, and those of his partners, he had other, far more lethal options, and could have employed some. Yet he chose to use this one... following protocol in so doing.... and still faces judgement in the court of public opinion.

Portland doesn't deserve him if they refuse to value him.

 

[gunnoob75]

My great paranoia?
Who are you to judge me?

Anyone who can ignore the lefts blatant disrespect of our gun rights is just ignorant.
Chicago ring a bell? DC?

Yep. They should.

Don't speak to me like a child, bubblegum. I'm up and tired of you liberals attacking and branding everyone who doesn't measure up to your standards of bullbubblegum on these forums. Keep it in your own god damn threads.

 

[bugeye]

My great paranoia?
Who are you to judge me?

Anyone who can ignore the lefts blatant disrespect of our gun rights is just ignorant.
Chicago ring a bell? DC?

Yep. They should.

Don't speak to me like a child, bubblegum. I'm up and tired of you liberals attacking and branding everyone who doesn't measure up to your standards of bullbubblegum on these forums. Keep it in your own god damn threads.

You more than measure up to anyones standards of bullbubblegum, potty mouth!

 

[bugeye]

I just did a quick check on the beanbags, and it seems they shoot a 616 grain bag (40 grams) at about 250 feet per second, doing some quick math (that I maybe did right) makes it about 77 foot pounds of force. Shot from such close range I'm sure the bag did not deploy to it's full 4 square inches, maybe that is why they have a minimum distance requirement, I wouldn't expect it to slow much in only 21 feet?

Interesting load I even looked at the patent that came up from google.

 

[pirateer2007]

Wake and Bug...

OK guys. Settle down or I'm gonna go tell Mom!!!

 

[aslinged]

Tionico, when comparing deaths in Mexico vs. deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are you including both US/coalition and Iraqi/native deaths or just US?

 

[shibbershabber]

sorry, lads, I do not OWN a television set.

Amen to that, Ive gone 6yrs w/o watching. SO now I am left to wonder how it is you developed such a grim view of society? The fear has to come from somwhere.

Read one of the early articles in this thread... there was a description of a large crowd (I seem to recall the number "about 150"). Miling in the streets, report of gun found connected with them. I don't spend much time in that part of Gresham any more, though I used to live not far away. Yet I've seen large numbers of toughs, milling about, looking for trouble. Late at night, rowdy, many drunk, gun on the scene.... go ahead, tell me that's god for the public safety. No, that's precisely the type of crowd gets tangled up in car vandalism, roughing up anyone caught in the area, breakins, "disturbing the peace".....

I dont need to read the reports... I saw the whole video before it was changed. 150 people is a gross overstatement, they were not a gang or a rowdy crowd, they were keeping distance watching what was happening.
The evidence of "gang activity" seems pretty scarce at this point. The report of a gun is just a story at this point as well. So far the only evidence is that this girl was resisting and she seemed to be subdued at the time of the shoot.

I grew up out there, I lived near 122nd & Halsey and to this day I work in the same area, which is not very far from 148 & Burnside where this took place.
I am out there quite often at night, on occasion I will be out having a few beers with my brother... I have seen real gang members, and I have seen kids like those who were on the train that night... there is a big difference.

I guarantee that when this is all over the gun will be nowhere to be found and proof of this girl's gang affiliation will never surface.

And as to your video surveilance fotage.... little doubt it is available to those who need it. The cops aren't so much on about appeasing the public just now, the investigation will need evidence, and those tapes are, at this point, none of the public's business. The men on the street have three battles to fight... one, wiht law and order, two to stay alive, and three to appease the public's howls in protest, whilst not knowing the details. Watching their "trial by supposition" here, I can well imagine what the public are doing to them.

Not about appeasing the public? Werent they crying out for public support today at their bootlicker rally downtown? Werent they calling for the public to "stand with" them?
All a waste of time, they have unconditional support of guys like you and many others who wouldnt call them out even if they had undeniably broken the law. And the rest of us are berated for calling their motives into question!
Every piece of this is the publics business. We elect their leaders, we pay their salaries... our tax dollars probably funded their little copfest today.
They are already being tried in the court of public opinion, would it not be wise to make public some proof that the shoot was necessary?

Well, yeah... just WHAT was she doing, where, when, and with whom? And what were the others she was with doing?

Thats the crux of the matter here... The only evidence we've seen was the trimet video shot @ the platform. In that video she is doing nothing other than resisting the officer. There is video from ON the train that has not been released. That footage is likely to clear or condemn the officer.

But from what I saw in the video... it was a dirty shoot by a cop who has a record for excessive force. The proof is in the pudding.

I see NO REASON to dispatch four cops to a Max station that hour of the night... other than that there is a problem large and serious enough to warrant such action. Rag on the cops all ya want.... I hope they DO go on strike. No cops on the streets, the punk gangs and druggies will play just like the moslem kids did in the burbs outside Paris two summers back. What was it, fifteen hundred cars trashed, buildings burned out, hundreds dead, the public endangered.... by very similarly constituted gangs of thugs who got a burr under their saddle blanket and went nuts. Who knows but that this one beanbag, approproately applied, might not be the thing settles back down a few of these kids gone wild.

I think it has already been stated, but you can verify for yourself... an appropriately applied beanbag round is NOT delivered at point blank range. Prove me wrong on that.

I hope they do go on strike! That would be great... especially since public opinion is so divided on the matter... it will only serve to make the entire department look like whining brats at the expense of the public, in the name of ONE hothead cop with a record. Yeah... real responsible.

This is one liberal who wont be afraid to ride the train, police strike or no.

And, as someone else mentioned, WHERE are their parents and training to be civilised members of society? I know people who've been victims of exactly this sort of crowd. WHY does this persist in a "nice city" like Portland? And why blame the cops sent out to slog through this sort of muck when they'd rather be sitting down, eating donuts, drinking a cup of coffee in a warm place? Get real.......

Its almost a moot point to bring up the parents here. The damage was done long ago.

Out of the thousands of arrests that go down in this city, and across the entire metro area... there are only a few incidents where the officer is accused of stepping out of line. Thats not really a bad record. But when they do step out of line, they need to be called on it and man up and take responsibility for their actions... not concoct wild stories about gang fights and guns, etc. to justify something that we all know was done outside of how they were trained. No one is trained to fire less-lethal devices at PB range. And to be caught doing so with a 12yr old girl is WAAAAAY over the top.

The officer should be ashamed for his actions and what he is putting the city, the department, and his fellow officers through. Man up, admit your mistake, cut a check and lets get on with it.

Live and learn right? Too bad he didnt learn from the last incident.

 

[usmc0311]

Ok, so I've spent some time looking into this more deeply, and feel I have a fairly good grasp on what transpired. The videos are released, as well as statements from PPD.

Pretty much all of the following info, as well as two different MAX videos can be found here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/11/live_blog_portland_police_shoo.html

Officers Dauchy (the one who was assaulted by the girl and subsequently took her down) and Humphreys were called to back up other officers at the party. Officers had evidently recovered a gun in the bushes and there were 75-100 people at the party, some of which were gang affiliated. The party was broken up and the officers followed them to the MAX station to make sure no fights broke out.

Dauchy recognized a juvenile female he knew was excluded from Tri Met (for purse snatching a month prior). He and Humphreys met the MAX at the next stop to remove her. Dauchy then recognized a male that had also been excluded and he removed him and cuffed him. He ordered the female (the 12 year old) off the train. She exited and as he began to cuff her, she swung on him and actively resisted arrest. That's when Humphreys stepped in. After multiple warnings from both officers, Humphreys shot her in the thigh at close range (about a foot). She immediately began cooperating. Paramedics were called and evaluated the girl and determined she only had a bruise and no significant harm was done.

Now with those facts in mind, I think a few things could be possible. Did Humphreys know she was 12? It was Dauchy that recognized her. I think it's reasonable to assume at this point that Humphreys only knew that a 5'7" 150 lb juvenile was attacking Dauchy. She could have been 17 for all he knew.

She recieved multiple warnings after assaulting an officer and actively resisting arrest. Dauchy did not have total control over her when the shot went off (at least not from what I can tell in the videos), but did afterward. PPB has no policy restricting the range from which to fire a bean bag shotgun. There are approximately 900 Portland Police officers who are rallying behind Humphries saying he acted appropriately. Chief Sizer has already sent out an email to the entire Bureau apologizing for saying the video was 'troubling'. Commisioner Saltzman (a politician, not a cop) is the one that demanded Humphreys be suspended immediately (for his own political clout, no doubt). No Confidence votes by the Police Union for Commisioner Saltzman and Chief Sizer are expected by the end of the week.

I dunno, it all seems pretty clear cut to me. The media is playing it up as this huge miscairrage of justice and emphasizing certain aspects in order to sell more papers, get more internet traffic, and ultimately sell more ad space..

Bunch of bull puckey...

 

[Gunner3456]

Ok, so I've spent some time looking into this more deeply, and feel I have a fairly good grasp on what transpired. The videos are released, as well as statements from PPD.

Pretty much all of the following info, as well as two different MAX videos can be found here:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/11/live_blog_portland_police_shoo.html

Officers Dauchy (the one who was assaulted by the girl and subsequently took her down) and Humphreys were called to back up other officers at the party. Officers had evidently recovered a gun in the bushes and there were 75-100 people at the party, some of which were gang affiliated. The party was broken up and the officers followed them to the MAX station to make sure no fights broke out.

Dauchy recognized a juvenile female he knew was excluded from Tri Met (for purse snatching a month prior). He and Humphreys met the MAX at the next stop to remove her. Dauchy then recognized a male that had also been excluded and he removed him and cuffed him. He ordered the female (the 12 year old) off the train. She exited and as he began to cuff her, she swung on him and actively resisted arrest. That's when Humphreys stepped in. After multiple warnings from both officers, Humphreys shot her in the thigh at close range (about a foot). She immediately began cooperating. Paramedics were called and evaluated the girl and determined she only had a bruise and no significant harm was done.

Now with those facts in mind, I think a few things could be possible. Did Humphreys know she was 12? It was Dauchy that recognized her. I think it's reasonable to assume at this point that Humphreys only knew that a 5'7" 150 lb juvenile was attacking Dauchy. She could have been 17 for all he knew.

She recieved multiple warnings after assaulting an officer and actively resisting arrest. Dauchy did not have total control over her when the shot went off (at least not from what I can tell in the videos), but did afterward. PPB has no policy restricting the range from which to fire a bean bag shotgun. There are approximately 900 Portland Police officers who are rallying behind Humphries saying he acted appropriately. Chief Sizer has already sent out an email to the entire Bureau apologizing for saying the video was 'troubling'. Commisioner Saltzman (a politician, not a cop) is the one that demanded Humphreys be suspended immediately (for his own political clout, no doubt). No Confidence votes by the Police Union for Commisioner Saltzman and Chief Sizer are expected by the end of the week.

I dunno, it all seems pretty clear cut to me. The media is playing it up as this huge miscairrage of justice and emphasizing certain aspects in order to sell more papers, get more internet traffic, and ultimately sell more ad space..

Bunch of bull puckey...

Which video were you watching? I see four cops. If the girl is 5' 7" 150, the cops are 6' 2", 250.

I see four cops. I see no unruly crowd. I see the ever present gawkers who stand still, well back and then leave when she is cuffed.

I see one cop just standing around, another just standing around with a shot gun, and two wrestling the girl.

If there was an unruly crowd or a gun found, it wasn't at this location. These cops had left that location and followed Tri Met to this stop to intercept an excluded teen.

This not about gangs or a gun. That was earlier at a different place. This is about chasing down a teen because the teen was excluded from Tri Met.

Two cops have her down. A third dusts her with a bean bag at point blank range. A fourth just stands there watching it all.

It looks like a lot of manpower and firepower, all focused on one girl. She is a small person compared to the cops. There is no crowd of gang members at that location to distract. The cops have left that location, proving that the incident there was under control too or they wouldn't have left to chase down an "excluded" teen at another stop.

All this pucky about gangs and guns is hooey. That was another location, earlier. What we're seeing is four cops trying to cuff one unruly girl.

Way to go guys. Next time you need her cuffed, call me and I'll do it for you without the shotgun.

 

[Benny503]

This story is getting better "Dauchy recognized a juvenile female he knew was excluded from Tri Met (for purse snatching a month prior). He and Humphreys met the MAX at the next stop to remove her." So Dauchy knew the girl and the her age, hmmm public safety... really concerned me. Chasing down a 12 year old girl, just to remove her from the Max... Way to go Dauchy.... there are punch of child molesters, rapers, drug dealers, robbers and thiefs and you decide to chase down a 12 years old girl to kick her off the max line.... Kudos to PPB whatever they call for effectively using tax payer hard working money, mater fact they should increase multnomah county tax again like they did few years ago so they can pay for all your time chasing down a little girl.

 

[Gunner3456]

This story is getting better "Dauchy recognized a juvenile female he knew was excluded from Tri Met (for purse snatching a month prior). He and Humphreys met the MAX at the next stop to remove her." So Dauchy knew the girl and the her age, hmmm public safety... really concerned me. Chasing down a 12 year old girl, just to remove her from the Max... Way to go Dauchy.... there are punch of child molesters, rapers, drug dealers, robbers and thiefs and you decide to chase down a 12 years old girl to kick her off the max line.... Kudos to PPB whatever they call for effectively using tax payer hard working money, mater fact they should increase multnomah county tax again like they did few years ago so they can pay for all your time chasing down a little girl.

Yep. All of this noise about a gun and gangs is pure pucky. That was earlier at a different location.

Apparently four cops chase a girl to a different stop because she is excluded from Tri Met. She's way too big and strong for the four cops to handcuff so they blast her at point blank range with a "less lethal" weapon.

I'm not impressed.

 

[Randini]

"David Klinger, senior research scientist for The Police Foundation in Washington, D.C. who is an expert on police decision-making and the use of deadly force, said that officers are trained to fire the beanbag rounds at some distance, rather than being up close, and to aim at the extremities. "

"Under the model policies, the optimal distance for firing a beanbag is between 21 and 50 feet. Beanbag rounds present a risk of death or serious physical injury at less than 10 feet when fired at the chest, head, neck and groin, PARC's report said."


"But Klinger said officers shouldn't be firing a shotgun at a suspect who is struggling with another officer. "I'm not aware of any training that teaches officers to use beanbag rounds when another officer is engaged with a suspect," Klinger said. "What if you missed and you hit the other officer?"

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/11/experts_say_tactical_choice_of.html


This was not proper police training, the EXPERT has spoken !!

 

[usmc0311]

Which video were you watching? I see four cops. If the girl is 5' 7" 150, the cops are 6' 2", 250.

I see four cops. I see no unruly crowd. I see the ever present gawkers who stand still, well back and then leave when she is cuffed.

I see one cop just standing around, another just standing around with a shot gun, and two wrestling the girl.

If there was an unruly crowd or a gun found, it wasn't at this location. These cops had left that location and followed Tri Met to this stop to intercept an excluded teen.

This not about gangs or a gun. That was earlier at a different place. This is about chasing down a teen because the teen was excluded from Tri Met.

Two cops have her down. A third dusts her with a bean bag at point blank range. A fourth just stands there watching it all.

It looks like a lot of manpower and firepower, all focused on one girl. She is a small person compared to the cops. There is no crowd of gang members at that location to distract. The cops have left that location, proving that the incident there was under control too or they wouldn't have left to chase down an "excluded" teen at another stop.

All this pucky about gangs and guns is hooey. That was another location, earlier. What we're seeing is four cops trying to cuff one unruly girl.

Way to go guys. Next time you need her cuffed, call me and I'll do it for you without the shotgun.

Really? You're gonna focus on two sentences I said at the beginning, and ignore everything else? I don't care if it was about guns or gangs or anything else.

So what if the crowd wasn't being unruly? They sure were piling off the MAX, and that presented a situation where they could become unruly and the situation could become out of control..

Do you think all the cops rallying behind Humphreys are dirtbags too? Should we fire the entire Bureau because of your armchair police work? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that (the bulk of my post) instead of focusing on the first two sentences..

 

[usmc0311]

This story is getting better "Dauchy recognized a juvenile female he knew was excluded from Tri Met (for purse snatching a month prior). He and Humphreys met the MAX at the next stop to remove her." So Dauchy knew the girl and the her age, hmmm public safety... really concerned me. Chasing down a 12 year old girl, just to remove her from the Max... Way to go Dauchy.... there are punch of child molesters, rapers, drug dealers, robbers and thiefs and you decide to chase down a 12 years old girl to kick her off the max line.... Kudos to PPB whatever they call for effectively using tax payer hard working money, mater fact they should increase multnomah county tax again like they did few years ago so they can pay for all your time chasing down a little girl.

Yeah, I'd want him to kick a known thief off the MAX. That way my friends and family don't have to worry about some punk kid stealing their stuff! What kind of world do you live in? Really? He saw a crime and corrected it! You'll have to forgive him for not getting all the other criminals at the same time...

 

[usmc0311]

"David Klinger, senior research scientist for The Police Foundation in Washington, D.C. who is an expert on police decision-making and the use of deadly force, said that officers are trained to fire the beanbag rounds at some distance, rather than being up close, and to aim at the extremities."

"Under the model policies, the optimal distance for firing a beanbag is between 21 and 50 feet. Beanbag rounds present a risk of death or serious physical injury at less than 10 feet when fired at the chest, head, neck and groin, PARC's report said."


"But Klinger said officers shouldn't be firing a shotgun at a suspect who is struggling with another officer. "I'm not aware of any training that teaches officers to use beanbag rounds when another officer is engaged with a suspect," Klinger said. "What if you missed and you hit the other officer?"

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/11/experts_say_tactical_choice_of.html


This was not proper police training, the EXPERT has spoken !!

First off, he shot her in the thigh, not the head, neck, torso or groin. Second of all, your expert lives and works on the East Coast in DC. They weren't there, and I would be willing to bet that he is not familiar with PPB policy and procedure. From everything I've read, Humphreys actions fell withing PPB guidelines for using the beanbag shotgun.

 

[JAFO]

Neither side of this argument should try insulting someone by calling them a Monday Morning Quarterback or Armchair Quarterback when everyone involved in this thread is such. Just because you don't agree with someone's opinion it doesn't make yours right.

 

[JAFO]

First off, he shot her in the thigh, not the head, neck, torso or groin. Second of all, your expert lives and works on the East Coast in DC. They weren't there, and I would be willing to bet that he is not familiar with PPB policy and procedure. From everything I've read, Humphreys actions fell withing PPB guidelines for using the beanbag shotgun.

Want to bet $50 that PPB guidelines will be different now?

Thank goodness that something good will come of this.