Police shootings raise questions

[MountainBear]

becoming quiet common here in Spokane for cops to shoot citizens under very questionable circumstances and get away with it. The latest case a cop was TRESPASSING on private property, when the owner went to investigate he was shot and killed the cop promptly went on vacation the next day and was out of town for a week (try that as a private citizen) came back with a story he can't keep straight , the citizen had a pistol in his waistband and refused to drop it, Not in hand not pointed at cop, in his waistband. 74 year old man cop claimed to hit him with night stick and knock him to his knees, (74 year old people get bruises while putting on their socks) No bruise to support this claim. still refused to drop his gun so he shot him. couple of years ago off duty cop (had a few drinks)shot man in head claimed he was breaking into his truck , no prints on truck to support this, bullet glanced off, chased man through residential neighborhood shooting hit a couple of houses (you would be tried for reckless endangerment at the minimum) got a walk.if this one with the old man gets a walk also it will prove that law enforcement is out of control here.

Yeah, because we obviously know the entire stories in all these cases.

I am all for holding officers accountable when they make mistakes. And they certainly do on occasion. But what I will not do, and neither should anyone else, is convict an officer based on the story printed in the local fish wrapper. When the officers are convicted by a jury of their CIVILIAN brethren, I will agree that they made a mistake and are deserving of the punishment they get (up to and including incarceration). Before that, there are obviously circumstances and facts that we are not privy to. If they make a mistake, hold them to the same punishments civilians are subject to...

 

[Riot]

Oh, where to begin?

When cops confront an armed citizen, what typically erupts is a scream fest with every officer involved yelling at the individual, and it is impossible to understand what is being yelled. This can be very disorienting and while it may be designed to disorient a suspect, it also has the potential to cause that individual to do something abruptly. Even if one drops the weapon, there is NO guarantee that the armed citizen is not going to get shot, anyway.

In such a confrontation, police need to adjust their training to have ONE person and ONLY ONE verbally communicating with a suspect.

Read the column again and read my link to the OP-ED piece I wrote ten years ago in relation to the David Walker shooting in downtown Seattle. I'm not against police but there are evidently some real problems with how they are trained to confront people these days that may need serious re-thinking.

Just saying.

Oh, where do I begin...

If you are carrying a gun (legally) you should have the training, observation skills and know-how to not only use the gun, but to know that when police are called to a situation you are automatically the subject on arrival.

Threats are perceived by how serious they are...if you had a gun pointing at a guy on the ground; I would be pointing the gun at you. If you did not comply I would shoot you.

I perceive you as a threat to me or others...just as the arguement for shooting an intruder in your house is justified; I can shoot you for standing over someone with a gun out.

Why?

Because I don't know your intentions, the situation or who you are...just as you don't know if a bum is breaking into your house to use the bathroom.

So, if you don't see the flashing strobe-lights, hear the sirens or the screams of a police officer, that is nobody's fault but your own. Once the police are there, everyone is the bad guy until the facts are sorted out...assumptions and hesitation brings police back in body bags. Therefore, when you go out and try to stop someone from being robbed or raped or murdered and decide to pull your weapon out and point it at someone you are taking your life in your own hands.

Playing hero, then whining about being treated like the bad guy is asking for your cake and eating it too. Friendly fire incidents occur more than you think, which is why it is so much safer and smarter to simply avoid confrontations and pick defensive positions over going on the offensive.

Put yourself in other CCW holder shoes as well...say there is an active shooter in the mall and you decide to go looking for him/her to take them down? What do you think I will do when you come walking past my wife and I with a gun out?

I will shoot you...period. You can come on here and scream at me for this logic, but I'm not going to sit and assume you are "one of the good guys".

So maybe you guys need to check your own tactics and threat assessments before you all go jumping down the cops for doing nothing but being a cop in a no-cop zone.


Take a step back, breathe, and instead of putting yourself in the cop shoes- put yourself in the CCW shoes. What would YOU do? Would you be standing there with your gun out while being screamed at by a cop? Would you have put yourself in a situation to make a cop have to assess what kind of a threat you are?

If I pull out my gun, it is because I intend to use it...if I can get away I will get away...the only exception to this rule is if the victim(s) is someone I know.

I know that it a bit of self-preservation stance and is a bit selfish, but I don't care. If I can rescue people without putting myself or my loved ones in a compromising situation, I will. But I don't go LOOKING for trouble....which is what I see a lot of you guys (especially on this forum) doing.

I will scream for open carry rights just as loudly as any of you, but I think it is stupid to do it. A lot of you guys ask for trouble then blame the police and point out "lack of training" when you see the tougher side of the law.

I'm done with this rant, for now...

 

[Karma]

Oh, where do I begin...

If you are carrying a gun (legally) you should have the training, observation skills and know-how to not only use the gun, but to know that when police are called to a situation you are automatically the subject on arrival.

Threats are perceived by how serious they are...if you had a gun pointing at a guy on the ground; I would be pointing the gun at you. If you did not comply I would shoot you.

I perceive you as a threat to me or others...just as the arguement for shooting an intruder in your house is justified; I can shoot you for standing over someone with a gun out.

Why?

Because I don't know your intentions, the situation or who you are...just as you don't know if a bum is breaking into your house to use the bathroom.

So, if you don't see the flashing strobe-lights, hear the sirens or the screams of a police officer, that is nobody's fault but your own. Once the police are there, everyone is the bad guy until the facts are sorted out...assumptions and hesitation brings police back in body bags. Therefore, when you go out and try to stop someone from being robbed or raped or murdered and decide to pull your weapon out and point it at someone you are taking your life in your own hands.

Playing hero, then whining about being treated like the bad guy is asking for your cake and eating it too. Friendly fire incidents occur more than you think, which is why it is so much safer and smarter to simply avoid confrontations and pick defensive positions over going on the offensive.

Put yourself in other CCW holder shoes as well...say there is an active shooter in the mall and you decide to go looking for him/her to take them down? What do you think I will do when you come walking past my wife and I with a gun out?

I will shoot you...period. You can come on here and scream at me for this logic, but I'm not going to sit and assume you are "one of the good guys".

So maybe you guys need to check your own tactics and threat assessments before you all go jumping down the cops for doing nothing but being a cop in a no-cop zone.


Take a step back, breathe, and instead of putting yourself in the cop shoes- put yourself in the CCW shoes. What would YOU do? Would you be standing there with your gun out while being screamed at by a cop? Would you have put yourself in a situation to make a cop have to assess what kind of a threat you are?

If I pull out my gun, it is because I intend to use it...if I can get away I will get away...the only exception to this rule is if the victim(s) is someone I know.

I know that it a bit of self-preservation stance and is a bit selfish, but I don't care. If I can rescue people without putting myself or my loved ones in a compromising situation, I will. But I don't go LOOKING for trouble....which is what I see a lot of you guys (especially on this forum) doing.

I will scream for open carry rights just as loudly as any of you, but I think it is stupid to do it. A lot of you guys ask for trouble then blame the police and point out "lack of training" when you see the tougher side of the law.

I'm done with this rant, for now...

LOL. The "tougher side of the law huh"? Is it the "tougher side of the law" when 5 officers tazer a old, unarmed man who is a cancer patient? How about when they mistakenly detain a couple of young mexican kids, put them facedown on the ground, then boot the kid in the head for no reason? Then they dust him off and send him stumbling on his way when they find out the screwed the pooch. Anyone who kicks kids while they are on the ground or tazers a old man are not showing the "tougher side of the law". They are showing me what a power crazed pussy is.

Police need the reigns pulled back some. If a officer abuses his power, he needs to be immediately dismissed, and depending on the severity, prosecuted. Some people can handle absolute power without abusing it, but not many.

I know a couple guys who are fine officers. They would never abuse their power in any way. They are the kind of guys who treat everyone with respect. I also know quite a few bubblegums with badges who would abuse their power at the drop of a hat!

Here is the deal. I have accountability as a chl holder. If I shoot someone, I damn sure better be in the right, or I am going to prison, period. Guess what, that keeps chl holders from doing stupid crap and abusing their power.

I think nothing less should happen with officers. That is all. If their life or the life of another is in immediate danger, they can use lethal force to stop the threat. They can't do bubblegum like tazering a old man who is a cancer patient. They can't stomp people who are on the ground and under control.

YouTube - Officer threatens, kicks man in Seattle More police brutality


It sounds to me like you are a proponant of shoot first and ask questions later. That is bullbubblegum. People CHOOSE to become police officers. They are not drafted. There are inherant risks in doing that job, just as there are risks if you are a timber faller. You accept those risks when you take the job, and it in no way is a excuse to be a danger to others.

 

[Spad]

So he got kicked inthe head, but the bruise is on the left side of his face, hmm. wonder if he was reaching for a hidden weapon. The armchair "expert" is something else, where did they dredge him up from.....

 

[Dave Workman]

So he got kicked inthe head, but the bruise is on the left side of his face, hmm. wonder if he was reaching for a hidden weapon. The armchair "expert" is something else, where did they dredge him up from.....

Uhhhhh, the last time I checked, the face is part of the head.

 

[Karma]

So he got kicked inthe head, but the bruise is on the left side of his face, hmm. wonder if he was reaching for a hidden weapon. The armchair "expert" is something else, where did they dredge him up from.....

He was innocent! lol. It was mistaken identity! See, this is the problem. People who feel anything a officer does is o.k. Maybe the bruise on the opposite side of his face was because that side was on the concrete? Find the full video and watch it. It shows what happened at the end when the cops found out they had been stomping on a innocent guy! There was no weapon!

Man, stuff like this, and worse are videotaped EVERYWHERE constantly! Why do you think there is ideas floating around for new laws that you can't videotape the police? Things are starting to be brought to light. For way too long, police brutality has been written off as happening to people who must have deserved it. Now videotape is finally showing that many times, it is just a a$$hole with a badge.

I am not a cop hater. Just the opposite as a matter of fact. I have multiple family members who are officers. I also have some really good friends who I respect greatly who are officers. I think that it takes a special kind of person to be a police officer, and not everyone is cut out for it. I think that people with power trips have no business being a police officer. I also think that people with anger issues have no business being a police officer.

Here is another one for you. Look them up. There is ALOT of them!

YouTube - Police Brutality

 

[MountainBear]

I wish the media would devote as much time to heroic acts by police officers as they do to the morons who screw up. All we see, all we talk about are the idiots. Today, just like 99.9% of guns killed no one today, 99.9% of officers did their jobs ethically, honestly, and effectively...

 

[Karma]

I wish the media would devote as much time to heroic acts by police officers as they do to the morons who screw up. All we see, all we talk about are the idiots. Today, just like 99.9% of guns killed no one today, 99.9% of officers did their jobs ethically, honestly, and effectively...

You are right MountainBear. Most officers are good people. The problem is that when they are bad, they can really mess things up for other people! The power that they have can crush someones entire life, or more on topic, end someone's life. That is why it is so important to make sure that the few are brought out and ousted.

 

[yubariver]

Stranger and stranger.

<broken link removed>

 

[svxr8dr]

I perceive you as a threat to me or others...just as the arguement for shooting an intruder in your house is justified; I can shoot you for standing over someone with a gun out.

Why?

Because I don't know your intentions, the situation or who you are...just as you don't know if a bum is breaking into your house to use the bathroom.

So, if you don't see the flashing strobe-lights, hear the sirens or the screams of a police officer, that is nobody's fault but your own. Once the police are there, everyone is the bad guy until the facts are sorted out...assumptions and hesitation brings police back in body bags. Therefore, when you go out and try to stop someone from being robbed or raped or murdered and decide to pull your weapon out and point it at someone you are taking your life in your own hands.

I guess your oath to support and defend the Constitution did not include the 5th Amendment

 

[MountainBear]

You are right MountainBear. Most officers are good people. The problem is that when they are bad, they can really mess things up for other people! The power that they have can crush someones entire life, or more on topic, end someone's life. That is why it is so important to make sure that the few are brought out and ousted.

You're right as well. An officer's mistake can ruin a life. But no more so than a Doctor's mistake. Or a lawyer's. Or a judge's. And I don't see constant stories posted on here about the mistakes those groups make. No postings about how many doctors have misdiagnosed health problems leading to death or serious physical injury. No postings about how people in the legal system misrepresent the facts and get an innocent person condemned to jail.

The fact of the matter is that there are any number of occupations that can very quickly ruin a life with a simple mistake. Even worse can happen when someone in one of those occupations is acting unethically on a regular basis. All those people need to be removed from their jobs. But we need to remember and highlight the good people. We need to show our kids the heroes. We need to show them the kind of people they should grow up to be. We need to encourage good people to do those jobs. The more good people in those jobs, the harder it will be for habitual screw-ups to remain. And then things will start to change.

 

[Spad]

Having seen and heard many stories of "innocent" people killing policeman most police officers are one step away from beingthe victims themselves demands a high degree of caution. The individual who moved his hand, the officer was merely reacting the quickest way, what was he supposed to do, lean down and grab his hand,no way. The touch to the head was a pure accident. I suspect the bruises on the face are from the tussle of cuffing the guy. The guys attitude wasn't exactly what I would call civilized, obviuosly a smart *** listening to him talk. How aboutthe "victims" background, heard anything about that? That could have some bearing on the officers attitude. I do not condone police brute behavior,but I also think we have boards and legal people who will lookat this and come to a logical conclusion. Spad

 

[Russianfist]

I keep seeing these anti cop posting and I have to wonder if you guys know anything about the law at all?

You really sound like a bunch of whinning "down with the man" hippies here.

It would seem from these posts that you all think that LEO's are a bunch of Nazi gestapo out to destroy your life's.

Take a tour of your local PD. Take a ride along. Get to know the people you are so happy to bash and see what they go through in life? Talk to them and get to know them. Then make up your own mind insted of letting the MEDIA do it for you.

Or you can just sit and b!tch about something you don't have a clue about like you're doing now...

 

[svxr8dr]

Thanks Russian Fist...am I allowed to make comments about the military as a civilian, or can I only make those comments because I served?

 

[Trlsmn]

Russianfist, I have to agree with svxr8dr, this is the internet and this is a discussion board, if we all agreed on every point why even talk to each other? We could just have one thread a day to post virtual High 5's.

 

[MountainBear]

While I don't agree with the approach that Russianfist took, I agree with his frustration. When I see a news story about alleged military misconduct, I tend to remain mute, at least on the technical aspects. I was never allowed to serve my country in the military. I tried, but was denied. I therefor know very little about military procedures.

People who have never served as police officers are GENERALLY equally as ignorant on police procedures. There are procedures that are taken to minimize the risk not only to the officer's, but the victim as well. Sometimes what seems like excessive force is the best option to quickly end a situation. The quicker a situation ends, the safer it is for all concerned. Try to remember, a person doesn't have to be in peak physical condition to harm another. I don't care if it's a teenager, woman, fat guy, or an elderly cancer patient.

I believe everyone is allowed to make comments they see fit. This is a free country. But sometimes it seems insulting for people to speak as if they know what certain situations are like when they've never experienced them.

 

[Karma]

I keep seeing these anti cop posting and I have to wonder if you guys know anything about the law at all?

You really sound like a bunch of whinning "down with the man" hippies here.

It would seem from these posts that you all think that LEO's are a bunch of Nazi gestapo out to destroy your life's.

Take a tour of your local PD. Take a ride along. Get to know the people you are so happy to bash and see what they go through in life? Talk to them and get to know them. Then make up your own mind insted of letting the MEDIA do it for you.

Or you can just sit and b!tch about something you don't have a clue about like you're doing now...

It seems sitting here bubbleguming about something you have no clue about is exactly what you are doing. Have you ever been victimized by a bad cop? Have you ever had your rights violated while being completely innocent? If not, you really wouldn't be informed on the subject would you?

Do you know anything about the law at all?

I dealt with a bad cop a long time ago as a kid. I know first hand what kind of misery an a$$hole with a badge can cause. He finally got his, but not before he caused way more than his share of problems including at least one death.

Mountainbear, I completely agree with your point concerning dr's. I have lost a couple of loved ones to what I would call malpractice. A big difference is that going to the dr. is voluntary. If you don't like that dr. you go to a different one. You don't get that option when you have red and blue lights flashing and they inject themselves into your life.

 

[Russianfist]

svxr8dr and Trlsmn, everyone's allowed their opinion so I was offering mine in a counterpoint. Albeit frustrated.

To answer a couple questions for Karma. Yes, I have been abused by an officer and my rights were violated. I was a young little trouble making thug and not suprised at what I had coming. I also have had officers let me slide on things I should by all rights went to jail for. It balanced out in the end and all was well. As for knowing the laws, will civil rights class's and force/counter force class's among others work for you?

The bottom line is this. You are going to find doushe bags in everyfield........everywhere.........everyday!

You will find very few in law enforcement because of back ground checks and psych eval's. Never the less, some will get through and be sure to ruin someones day and make those people think that "ALL" cops are dirtbags with a gun and an attitude.

In fact, I know a couple of guys that should be in different fields but that's just the way it is....for now.

Why do you all see just a small piece of the bigger picture?

 

[Trlsmn]

I can't speak for anyone but myself but I personally like to treat all the many posted police situations on there own merit, a search of my own posts will show that I have no bias for or against police and my opinion could go either way. One thing that we all must consider is that police actions are under a internet microscope where anything and everything negative will be published and the good things they do everyday will go unnoticed because lets face we would be bored to tears. It's the nature of the job.

 

[Karma]

To answer a couple questions for Karma. Yes, I have been abused by an officer and my rights were violated. I was a young little trouble making thug and not suprised at what I had coming. I also have had officers let me slide on things I should by all rights went to jail for. It balanced out in the end and all was well. As for knowing the laws, will civil rights class's and force/counter force class's among others work for you?

The bottom line is this. You are going to find doushe bags in everyfield........everywhere.........everyday!

You will find very few in law enforcement because of back ground checks and psych eval's. Never the less, some will get through and be sure to ruin someones day and make those people think that "ALL" cops are dirtbags with a gun and an attitude.

In fact, I know a couple of guys that should be in different fields but that's just the way it is....for now.

Why do you all see just a small piece of the bigger picture?

I by no means think that all cops are dirtbags with guns. I have said that multiple times in my posts. I think the majority of cops are good people, who do a good job. Those cops are not the topic of this thread. If you guys want to start a thread about great things police officers have done, I have plenty to add to that thread also!

You may have been a trouble making thug, but I wasn't. I was a really hard working kid who happened to get the wrong girlfriend in high school. Her godfather was this whackjob. I got screwed with continuously and it got pretty serious. He ended up getting booted out of the department and actually even going to jail.

If I deserved what I got, I wouldn't be sitting here bubbleguming about it.

P.S. My first degree was in Criminal Justice, with many specialty courses. I branched off in a different direction for my bachelors, but am headed back for law again.

I respect the job a officer has and the field he works in. I just don't blindly respect the person wearing the badge. As was mentioned, there are dirtbags in every area.