Poll: oversized bullet...

[P7M13]

.004 seems like a lot. A lot of extra pressure.

so if say my issue is useable my complaint is I dont want to redo my load development for the next order. personally I dont really have time to play with load developments I just want a hunting recipe for this bullet and move on. If I have to keep adjusting charge weights or other tuning then the problem is the bullet tolerance and I need to use a different company with better QC.

Yea, understandable. I traded for mine. Was surprised to see the amount of oversize they were, but I'm a cheap bastige, so I did some rough calculations and what I came up with was that the behavior would be similar to shooting a much heavier bullet in the same caliber. The result was, as I mentioned, use a slower powder.
In terms of the hardness of copper vs lead, A good linotype cast bullet, quenched, might be as high as 25 Brinell, whereas copper will be ~35.

 

[Bobbygun]

SAAMI COAL to me has always been a guide as most can seat longer to tune accuracy. Ive never heard of anyone not being able to reach SAAMI COAL at all, Im assuming minimum tolerance.

I've had some success going the other direction. I've got a Remy 700 Classic in .25-06 that didn't shoot factory loads of any kind very well. It almost felt like I was seating the bullet further when I closed the action. While handloading, I tried seating the bullets a bit deeper in the case and it turned into a sub 1 MOA gun.

 

[gmerkt]

They do now but when it first came out they used .225 bullets which is part of the reason they are no longer made.

Quite possibly apocryphal information. I've got reloading books and data back into the time when the .225 Win. was introduced circa 1964. All references to the .225 Win. show .224 bullets used. NRA tech data shows .225 Win. test barrel measuring .224, which is the same (plus or minus .0001-.0002) for .222 Rem., .223 Rem., and .220 Swift (which the .225 Win. was designed to replace). So if true .225 bullets were ever used, I can't find any reference to it. Were they ever offered as a reloading component even "back in the day?"

Yes, the .225 Win. is a very sluggish mover in the resale market. For one thing, they haven't made any new rifles in .225 Win. in donkey's years. This is one case where rarity doesn't equate to increased value. I've seen some Model 70's in 225 Win. for sale over the years and they were always well underpriced compared to other chamberings. I've never exactly been shy of buying a weird cartridge gun but was never tempted with the .225 Win. For another thing, they had a 1-14 barrel twist, which limits the weight of bullets you may use.

What I've read is that the main reason the .225 Win. wasn't successful had to do with the ("official") introduction of the .22-250 shortly after. The .22-250 had been a very popular wildcat cartridge prior to its being legitimized by Remington, so was much better known to the shooting community than the .225 Win. which was new.

 

[Koda]

Hold on, we are supposed to measure the bullets before loading them?

I will be now.
Im surprised to see bullets oversized.

 

[Koda]

I've had some success going the other direction. I've got a Remy 700 Classic in .25-06 that didn't shoot factory loads of any kind very well. It almost felt like I was seating the bullet further when I closed the action. While handloading, I tried seating the bullets a bit deeper in the case and it turned into a sub 1 MOA gun.

I have one too, Im waiting on a new fast twist barrel and cant wait to get a load working for it. My favorite caliber and hunting rifle.

Playing with seating depth affects groups, but are you saying you seated below SAAMI minimum?

 

[Local Loader]

Quite possibly apocryphal information. I've got reloading books and data back into the time when the .225 Win. was introduced circa 1964. All references to the .225 Win. show .224 bullets used. NRA tech data shows .225 Win. test barrel measuring .224, which is the same (plus or minus .0001-.0002) for .222 Rem., .223 Rem., and .220 Swift (which the .225 Win. was designed to replace). So if true .225 bullets were ever used, I can't find any reference to it. Were they ever offered as a reloading component even "back in the day?"

Yes, the .225 Win. is a very sluggish mover in the resale market. For one thing, they haven't made any new rifles in .225 Win. in donkey's years. This is one case where rarity doesn't equate to increased value. I've seen some Model 70's in 225 Win. for sale over the years and they were always well underpriced compared to other chamberings. I've never exactly been shy of buying a weird cartridge gun but was never tempted with the .225 Win. For another thing, they had a 1-14 barrel twist, which limits the weight of bullets you may use.

What I've read is that the main reason the .225 Win. wasn't successful had to do with the ("official") introduction of the .22-250 shortly after. The .22-250 had been a very popular wildcat cartridge prior to its being legitimized by Remington, so was much better known to the shooting community than the .225 Win. which was new.

I think you're right, I might have made the mistake of trusting a wiki page at first sight.

 

[Bobbygun]

I have one too, Im waiting on a new fast twist barrel and cant wait to get a load working for it. My favorite caliber and hunting rifle.

Playing with seating depth affects groups, but are you saying you seated below SAAMI minimum?

No. Not saying that at all. My comment was in response to the "most can seat longer" and I thought you were referring to SAAMI maximum COAL. I seat below maximum, but not below minimum.

 

[Koda]

No. Not saying that at all. My comment was in response to the "most can seat longer" and I thought you were referring to SAAMI maximum COAL. I seat below maximum, but not below minimum.

got it now,
though Im not surprised you can find an accuracy node within SAAMI spec.
Anyways in my case here Im jamming the lands (or maybe even the freebore) before max COAL so thats a hard stop for me.

 

[Bobbygun]

got it now,
though Im not surprised you can find an accuracy node within SAAMI spec.
Anyways in my case here Im jamming the lands (or maybe even the freebore) before max COAL so thats a hard stop for me.

Yeah, that's kind of what factory ammo felt like with my rifle. The bolt was a bit hard to close. I actually had visions of jacking a shell in and pulling the bullet and dumping powder in my magazine if I cycled the bolt to remove a loaded round. It didn't ever happen, but it sure crossed my mind.

My COAL is 3.17, well within specs and on the higher end between minimum and maximum.

 

[orygun]

I've had a few 30-06 rifles that would not accept a bullet at the listed COL without jamming into the lands.

The fly in the ointment of the 225 Winchester was the rim.

 

[Spitpatch]

I've had a few 30-06 rifles that would not accept a bullet at the listed COL without jamming into the lands.

The fly in the ointment of the 225 Winchester was the rim.

I dunno nuttin' 'bout no fly in no ointment, but dere ain' no bugs on dese uns:


"Post 64" Winchester Model 70 .225 Winchesters, first year production guns. Varminter on top, Sporter on the bottom with custom wood (Yes, original wood has been retained). This gun took an antelope a couple years ago.

 

[Mikej]

I reload often with loads that do not reach SAAMI OAL.

....Because, THEIR COAL is nothing more that what THEY used in THEIR gun/test barrel. Nothing more than a basic guideline.

 

[Bobbygun]

This gun took an antelope a couple years ago.

Many might say you shouldn't be hunting with such a nice gun. I'm not many.

We definitely need to get a "drool" emoji added.

 

[oremike]

The specs are there for a reference but how many times in daily life are there "change orders". I know when I was a gas piper for a HVAC company I was always giving back "as built" plans to the engineers. As discussed in a different thread, there are the specs and there is what works.

 

[Koda]

....Because, THEIR COAL is nothing more that what THEY used in THEIR gun/test barrel. Nothing more than a basic guideline.

No, their COAL is to assure that the bullet will fit in all chambers and magazines for that caliber. Otherwise things could get dangerous, like in my case.

 

[Koda]

The specs are there for a reference but how many times in daily life are there "change orders". I know when I was a gas piper for a HVAC company I was always giving back "as built" plans to the engineers. As discussed in a different thread, there are the specs and there is what works.

SAAMI specs are reference?
Would you load a bullet that jammed into the lands before proper seating depth? Thats what Im facing here. There is a diameter tolerance in the saami spec and the bullets I ordered are over them.

 

[oremike]

SAAMI specs are reference?
Would you load a bullet that jammed into the lands before proper seating depth? Thats what Im facing here. There is a diameter tolerance in the saami spec and the bullets I ordered are over them.

<sigh> As I said before, I wouldn't use those bullets, not because they hit the lands but because they are too big. You can adjust the seating depth but not the bullet diameter.

 

[Mikej]

No, their COAL is to assure that the bullet will fit in all chambers and magazines for that caliber. Otherwise things could get dangerous, like in my case.

No, bullet profile and chambers can vary slightly. Also, bullet doesn't fit to the chamber, it fits to the throat. If the data you are trying to follow isn't using your exact bullet and gun, their data is only for reference. If that isn't the case, why do I have to load different COALs for my different 9mm hand guns? It gives me COAL. If I load to their specs the slide won't lock. I have to shorten the COAL. Keeping powder charge in mind and using less powder to avoid pressure issues

 

[Mikej]

I think we're getting SAAMI specs and load data crossing over some.

 

[Koda]

No, bullet profile and chambers can vary slightly. Also, bullet doesn't fit to the chamber, it fits to the throat. If the data you are trying to follow isn't using your exact bullet and gun, their data is only for reference. If that isn't the case, why do I have to load different COALs for my different 9mm hand guns? It gives me COAL. If I load to their specs the slide won't lock. I have to shorten the COAL. Keeping powder charge in mind and using less powder to avoid pressure issues

The way I understand it is saami tolerances assure interchangeability and function in all guns for each caliber, thats it. Load data is for reference only. Now if we want to taylor a round specific to our exact chamber thats ok too.
What I dont understand is are you saying if you load a 9mm round within saami coal spec it wont chamber in your gun?