Poll: oversized bullet...

[Spitpatch]

They do now but when it first came out they used .225 bullets which is part of the reason they are no longer made. Too much of an odd ball size with little to no popularity.

That reference would interest me greatly if you would be so kind to provide it. Thank you.

Edited to add: Are you of the belief that the .225 Winchester is named that due to a bullet diameter (specialized out of Winchester?).

 

[Koda]

I sent another email today.
New question, how long should I wait to be sure they just arent on vacation or whatever to determine I'm being ghosted and they wont stand behind their product?

 

[RVTECH]

I sent another email today.
New question, how long should I wait to be sure they just arent on vacation or whatever to determine I'm being ghosted and they wont stand behind their product

Uh, why not mention the name of the mfg. It's not like you would be 'selling them out' or anything.

Realizing now they are solid copper bullets is a game changer and I'll leave it at that.

 

[bpyycpyy]

how long should I wait

I've been waiting on Nosler since April 2022…

You could throw them downrange and yell bang and pretend you got your moneys worth. I'd suggest giving them a few weeks to respond as you can't always know what's going on behind the scenes (especially since it sounds like it might be a smaller business). That should be sufficient time for a proper response and then feel free to call them out.

Edit (03/05/23): Got response from Nosler regarding the replacement of failing bullets that they "should be" moving onto building the 180 grain Accubonds in March, or next after the 165's. So hopefully soon, only after about a year...

 

[Koda]

Uh, why not mention the name of the mfg. It's not like you would be 'selling them out' or anything.

Realizing now they are solid copper bullets is a game changer and I'll leave it at that.

Im not the type to call out a company without giving them a chance to do the right thing. Im frustrated but admit the situation is too new to jump to conclusions. The only reason I started this thread was to see if there is something Im missing like if .2252" is a common tolerance for .224" caliber. But it appears its not.
How does copper monolithics make this a game changer?

 

[Koda]

I've been waiting on Nosler since April 2022…

You could throw them downrange and yell bang and pretend you got your moneys worth. I'd suggest giving them a few weeks to respond as you can't always know what's going on behind the scenes (especially since it sounds like it might be a smaller business). That should be sufficient time for a proper response and then feel free to call them out.

this is a reasonable suggestion. A couple weeks is a typical vacation time, or time to deal with other things that come up in life. Hopefully everyone is ok at this company.
If they dont stand behind their product then I'll mention them here.

 

[RVTECH]

How does copper monolithics make this a game changer?

The fact that they are most likely lathe turned as opposed to traditionally cast, or swaged, and then copper jacketed.

Beyond this I have nothing further to offer due my lack of experience with lathe turned bullets.

 

[Koda]

The fact that they are most likely lathe turned as opposed to traditionally cast, or swaged, and then copper jacketed.

Beyond this I have nothing further to offer due my lack of experience with lathe turned bullets.

They are lathe turned, and my guess is being a solid there is much less give to any oversize tolerances which is why I dont want to use these. Plus the -new- samples they provided measure in tolerance. I dont have a way to inspect the ogive but was comparing today by eye and think the bad ones have a longer (forward) ogive shape which I think is why they hit the lands so soon.

 

[Spitpatch]

Im not the type to call out a company without giving them a chance to do the right thing. Im frustrated but admit the situation is too new to jump to conclusions. The only reason I started this thread was to see if there is something Im missing like if .2252" is a common tolerance for .224" caliber. But it appears its not.
How does copper monolithics make this a game changer?

Monolithic bullets can never be treated or regarded or loaded in the same way as soft-core bullets. This is not a "new" prohibition on premium, controlled expansion bullets of intricate design. An early example of this was the Nosler Partition. they ran at VERY high pressure (due to the solid wall of copper between the two cores. The solution by Nosler became a "relief band" of lesser (no contact with rifling) diameter of the jacket at the area of the dividing wall. The solid bottom "Zipedo" bullets were equipped with intricate relief bands in the solid copper jacket base.

Later, with different alloys and methods of manufacture, that relief band was discontinued, but Partitions of the same weight as a conventional bullet cannot be loaded to the same top-end book load as a conventional bullet. Nosler has their own data. Not only for the Partitions, but the Accubonds and Ballistic Tips as well: the latter two create higher pressure (with the same load as compared to conventional) by their inordinate length of rifling contact, due to lesser weight fore and aft (plastic and solid copper).

The Hammer company also has their own data, I believe (hearsay only on my part, from a buddy who uses them). Barnes as well. It is best followed,

The "game changer" here is that many responders naturally assumed a soft-core bullet. This is a horse of a different color where pressure is concerned.

 

[Koda]

Monolithic bullets can never be treated or regarded or loaded in the same way as soft-core bullets. This is not a "new" prohibition on premium, controlled expansion bullets of intricate design. An early example of this was the Nosler Partition. they ran at VERY high pressure (due to the solid wall of copper between the two cores. The solution by Nosler became a "relief band" of lesser (no contact with rifling) diameter of the jacket at the area of the dividing wall. The solid bottom "Zipedo" bullets were equipped with intricate relief bands in the solid copper jacket base.

Later, with different alloys and methods of manufacture, that relief band was discontinued, but Partitions of the same weight as a conventional bullet cannot be loaded to the same top-end book load as a conventional bullet. Nosler has their own data.

thats an interesting insight and comparison into the Partitions I didnt know. My understanding with monolitic bullets is they went thru an evolution that started with no grooves/bands and had severe copper fouling affecting accuracy so now its very common on monolithics to find several grooves and now they work fine. The grooves provide a place for the lands to displace the copper as its forced into and down the barrel. And my impression so far is most copper monolithics have their own load data that doesn't quite line up with traditional cup and core.
Love the history on the partitions, thanks for sharing that.

 

[CLT65]

The fact that they are most likely lathe turned as opposed to traditionally cast, or swaged, and then copper jacketed.

Beyond this I have nothing further to offer due my lack of experience with lathe turned bullets.

Same here. Working up a load for slightly oversize traditional jacketed bullets wouldn't bother me either, but I've never worked with solid copper bullets and wouldn't take the chance.

 

[Koda]

Same here. Working up a load for slightly oversize traditional jacketed bullets wouldn't bother me either, but I've never worked with solid copper bullets and wouldn't take the chance.

keep in mind its not just the oversize. If that was all I might actually try them... (starting low).
But they also do not fit my chamber. They jam the lands before they reach SAAMI COAL maximum length.

 

[RVTECH]

They jam the lands before they reach SAAMI COAL maximum length.

This is a different issue and one I mentioned in an earlier post.

I reload often with loads that do not reach SAAMI OAL.

 

[Spitpatch]

Manufacturers of "Super Bullets" (no matter how small or specialized an operation) should offer "Super" customer service.

and now they work fine.

Not for me. Not yet. I do keep trying (my bullet cabinet testifies).

 

[Koda]

Manufacturers of "Super Bullets" (no matter how small or specialized an operation) should offer "Super" customer service.


Not for me. Not yet. I do keep trying (my bullet cabinet testifies).

which ones have you tried? Most of the copper monos are for hunting so I dont think they will ever be "match grade" but in other hunting forums lots of hunters are getting sub MOA with them.
I do find it interesting the Nosler etip does not have any drive bands to displace the copper from the lands...

 

[P7M13]

I was going to say, bullet construction is of concern because copper obturates much differently than lead. Copper jacket vs mono? I doubt there's much difference.
I"ve used copper jacketed bullets 0.004" oversized and chose to use a slower powder in that load cycle. Everything came out well.

If an oversize bullet causes the neck diameter to be oversize enough that it's tight in the chamber, that's where the real danger is.

This. The biggest problem I encountered with the 4 mil oversized bullet was fitting the bullet into the neck. They all chambered fine, and I shot them all.

 

[Koda]

I"ve used copper jacketed bullets 0.004" oversized and chose to use a slower powder in that load cycle. Everything came out well.

.004 seems like a lot. A lot of extra pressure.

so if say my issue is useable my complaint is I dont want to redo my load development for the next order. personally I dont really have time to play with load developments I just want a hunting recipe for this bullet and move on. If I have to keep adjusting charge weights or other tuning then the problem is the bullet tolerance and I need to use a different company with better QC.

 

[Koda]

This is a different issue and one I mentioned in an earlier post.

I reload often with loads that do not reach SAAMI OAL.

SAAMI COAL to me has always been a guide as most can seat longer to tune accuracy. Ive never heard of anyone not being able to reach SAAMI COAL at all, Im assuming minimum tolerance.

 

[Member 34319]

Hold on, we are supposed to measure the bullets before loading them?

 

[Spitpatch]

which ones have you tried? Most of the copper monos are for hunting so I dont think they will ever be "match grade" but in other hunting forums lots of hunters are getting sub MOA with them.
I do find it interesting the Nosler etip does not have any drive bands to displace the copper from the lands...

,,,just about everyone made in diameters from .257 to .308. Accuracy is very important to me, and lead-core bullets, chosen for purpose, have never failed me on game.