Oregon wolf situation

[The Heretic]

Using the "they were here first" logic, would also apply to non native Americans, now living where native Americans used to hunt or live.

If you're not native to here, does that mean you should give up your house in the woods and move to Europe?

Technically, "native" means you were born here.

Indigenous means you were here before anything else of your species - or more precisely, "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place".

 

[156256Hunter]

Technically, "native" means you were born here.

Indigenous means you were here before anything else of your species - or more precisely, "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place".

Ok, substitute indigenous for native then apply the logic to any non indigenous person's situation.

 

[Bobbygun]

You got a better chance of dieing visiting the windy city for a weekend than you do of dieing from a wolf attack in your lifetime.

Not for me there isn't! At least not anymore. Back in the late 80's or early 90's I spent some time in Chicago on business. A co-worker and I decided to walk from the downtown area out to Bulls Stadium to sit with 10,000 people watching Michael Jordan and team playing the Detroit Pistons while chanting "Laimbeer sucks!" Now that was a SCARY walk. We smartened up and took a cab back after dark. I doubt I'll be back. I spend more time in wolf country these days, but don't really fear the wolf other than the impact they have on my hunting.

In fairness, Chicago was a fun town back then.

 

[JRuby]

Not for me there isn't! At least not anymore. Back in the late 80's or early 90's I spent some time in Chicago on business. A co-worker and I decided to walk from the downtown area out to Bulls Stadium to sit with 10,000 people watching Michael Jordan and team playing the Detroit Pistons while chanting "Laimbeer sucks!" Now that was a SCARY walk. We smartened up and took a cab back after dark. I doubt I'll be back. I spend more time in wolf country these days, but don't really fear the wolf other than the impact they have on my hunting.

In fairness, Chicago was a fun town back then.

I spent some time in the early 80's in a town outside of Chicago called Zion thanks to uncle Sam - Chicage wasnt that great back then and its definitely no better today. I will take my chance with the wolves.

 

[RVTECH]

I will take my chance with the wolves.

At least the wolves don't carry guns.

 

[The Heretic]

Not for me there isn't! At least not anymore. Back in the late 80's or early 90's I spent some time in Chicago on business. A co-worker and I decided to walk from the downtown area out to Bulls Stadium to sit with 10,000 people watching Michael Jordan and team playing the Detroit Pistons while chanting "Laimbeer sucks!" Now that was a SCARY walk. We smartened up and took a cab back after dark. I doubt I'll be back. I spend more time in wolf country these days, but don't really fear the wolf other than the impact they have on my hunting.

In fairness, Chicago was a fun town back then.

I have cougars and bears and coyotes crossing my property frequently.

I don't fear them and I rarely have a gun on my person (usually only when I am target shooting).

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Humane Society of the United States, there are about 4.7 million dog bites every year in the U.S. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities.

In North America, there have been only 2 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In the lower 48, there have been 0 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In North America, there have been only 22 nonfatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. Four were rabid.

 

[American123]

I have cougars and bears and coyotes crossing my property frequently.

I don't fear them and I rarely have a gun on my person (usually only when I am target shooting).

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Humane Society of the United States, there are about 4.7 million dog bites every year in the U.S. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities.

In North America, there have been only 2 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In the lower 48, there have been 0 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In North America, there have been only 22 nonfatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. Four were rabid.

Your use of statistics is misleading. Divide dog attack fatalities by the number of dog bites and that relative risk is nearly 0%. Divide wolf attack fatalities by the number of wolf attack bites and the relative risk is much greater.

You can't claim "wolf attacks aren't a serious issue" if there aren't wolves in an area with enough numbers to be a serious issue.

That's like saying "men using ladies restrooms isn't an issue and there haven't been any attacks so far" before that was encouraged, because now that it has been encouraged there have been multiple documented cases of such.

 

[Bobbygun]

I have cougars and bears and coyotes crossing my property frequently.

I don't fear them and I rarely have a gun on my person (usually only when I am target shooting).

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Humane Society of the United States, there are about 4.7 million dog bites every year in the U.S. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities.

In North America, there have been only 2 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In the lower 48, there have been 0 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In North America, there have been only 22 nonfatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. Four were rabid.

That 16 fatalities from dogs seems a little low. Heck, there was a story a couple of days ago about dogs killing two children while the mom tried to fight them off. I think they were the family's dogs if I recall correctly.

But yeah, I hear you. When I go walking on the county road with my wife, the gun I'm carrying is much more likely to be used against dogs (4-legged or 2-legged) than wild animals. Of course, a guy doesn't want to become an anomaly - "the only person killed by a cougar in Oregon since...". It would be foolish to live in fear of that. But, better safe than sorry.

 

[156256Hunter]

At least the wolves don't carry guns.

To be fair, to be shot by a gun toting wolf would be a more humane way to go than being torn apart while still alive.

It's like in that Cleared Hot podcast one episode the guys were joking they'd rather face someone with a gun than a knife because the knife wounds they've seen were seriously messed up.

 

[156256Hunter]

I have cougars and bears and coyotes crossing my property frequently.

I don't fear them and I rarely have a gun on my person (usually only when I am target shooting).

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Humane Society of the United States, there are about 4.7 million dog bites every year in the U.S. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities.

In North America, there have been only 2 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In the lower 48, there have been 0 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In North America, there have been only 22 nonfatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. Four were rabid.

Be careful to not bump into a mama bear with her cub or you might be in for a long day. They move quick.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Evolution Of The Wolf

Wolves evolved from a common ancestor of the Canidae family around 4-5 million years ago. They were originally small, forest-dwelling creatures but gradually evolved into larger, more versatile animals. Wolves eventually diverged into different subspecies, including gray and red wolves. They...

northamericannature.com

Either way, wolves are indigenous to N. America. They were not introduced by humans. Gray wolves and their descendants/variations came over on the Bering land bridge (although some now say the migration went the other way). They may or may not have followed humans here, but they were not introduced by humans. They are part of the environment, just as elk and deer are.

Actually, no. The wolves being reintroduced are Canadian gray wolves. They are 50% larger than the original native wolf in Oregon. They have evolved to prey on moose, caribou, and bison. Deer and elk are no match for them. They are an invasive species purposefully introduced to the lower US in order to drive ranchers out of business and decimate game populations to end hunting.

On the ranches where I hunt, where I have exclusive hunting rights, two wolf packs have appeared in the last 5 years, and for the last 5 years the mule deer hunting has quickly declined from a 90% chance of getting my buck by 9 am on opening day, to covering 10,000 acres in 3 days without seeing a deer.

These ranchers are my extended family. I know how difficult the loss of cattle makes their lives. Most of them have outside jobs because it's very difficult to make a profit raising cattle. Beef prices are depressed by foreign imports raised where there are no government agencies dictating operations and environmental rules, no activists trying to put them out of business. The loss of even one or two cattle may make the difference whether there's a profit that year. And BTW, these families have OWNED their properties for 150 years. They are not "welfare ranchers", as the activists are so fond of characterizing them.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I have cougars and bears and coyotes crossing my property frequently.

I don't fear them and I rarely have a gun on my person (usually only when I am target shooting).

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Humane Society of the United States, there are about 4.7 million dog bites every year in the U.S. These bites result in approximately 16 fatalities.

In North America, there have been only 2 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In the lower 48, there have been 0 fatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. In North America, there have been only 22 nonfatal wild wolf attacks in the past century. Four were rabid.

If you want to be taken seriously don't quote the CDC and HSUS.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Technically, "native" means you were born here.

Indigenous means you were here before anything else of your species - or more precisely, "originating or occurring naturally in a particular place".

By that definition the "indigenous" Native Americans are no such thing. They too migrated here.

 

[Tlock]

Actually, no. The wolves being reintroduced are Canadian gray wolves. They are 50% larger than the original native wolf in Oregon. They have evolved to prey on moose, caribou, and bison. Deer and elk are no match for them. They are an invasive species purposefully introduced to the lower US in order to drive ranchers out of business and decimate game populations to end hunting.

On the ranches where I hunt, where I have exclusive hunting rights, two wolf packs have appeared in the last 5 years, and for the last 5 years the mule deer hunting has quickly declined from a 90% chance of getting my buck by 9 am on opening day, to covering 10,000 acres in 3 days without seeing a deer.

These ranchers are my extended family. I know how difficult the loss of cattle makes their lives. Most of them have outside jobs because it's very difficult to make a profit raising cattle. Beef prices are depressed by foreign imports raised where there are no government agencies dictating operations and environmental rules, no activists trying to put them out of business. The loss of even one or two cattle may make the difference whether there's a profit that year. And BTW, these families have OWNED their properties for 150 years. They are not "welfare ranchers", as the activists are so fond of characterizing them.

It's not even the death loss of 1 or 2 cattle that hurts the ranches the most, it's the fact that the wolves are running these cattle night after night and they are loosing weight. Say you have 800 head in one pasture and they all weight 50# less than what they did the year before with no wolf harassment. when you haul them off your down 40,000 pounds. Say cattle prices are 1.35$ a pound, that's 54,000$. Way bigger number than the loss of just 2 animals, yes the 2 animals still hurt the bottom line. I've seen this play out first hand

 

[156256Hunter]

By that definition the "indigenous" Native Americans are no such thing. They too migrated here.

Sounds like we all need to pack up and go back across the Siberian Land Bridge. Except it doesn't exist any more. Time is a flat circle, but things still change over time, which is why in my opinion, the "the wolves were here first" argument isn't a great one.

 

[The Heretic]

If you want to be taken seriously don't quote the CDC and HSUS.

The point is that domestic dogs are more dangerous to humans than wolves. And I would dare say that feral dogs can cause as much damage or more, to livestock and wildlife than wolves and coyotes.

As for whether the CDC/et. al. provide good stats - it is a logical fallacy to attack the messenger instead of the message, just because you don't like what is said.

 

[156256Hunter]

It's not even the death loss of 1 or 2 cattle that hurts the ranches the most, it's the fact that the wolves are running these cattle night after night and they are loosing weight. Say you have 800 head in one pasture and they all weight 50# less than what they did the year before with no wolf harassment. when you haul them off your down 40,000 pounds. Say cattle prices are 1.35$ a pound, that's 54,000$. Way bigger number than the loss of just 2 animals, yes the 2 animals still hurt the bottom line. I've seen this play out first hand

These are great points! People far removed from the front lines, so to speak, don't take all of these factors into account when rooting for reintro of wolves (in any number, any species, and at any cost).

 

[156256Hunter]

The point is that domestic dogs are more dangerous to humans than wolves. And I would dare say that feral dogs can cause as much damage or more, to livestock and wildlife than wolves and coyotes.

As for whether the CDC/et. al. provide good stats - it is a logical fallacy to attack the messenger instead of the message, just because you don't like what is said.

Except without consequence, a rancher can shoot feral dogs or coyotes harassing their cattle. Not so with Canadian Oregon wolves.

 

[Tlock]

Except without consequence, a rancher can shoot feral dogs or coyotes harassing their cattle. Not so with Canadian Oregon wolves.

Yes you are correct....plus domestic dogs aren't mutilating and feeding on 800# steers while there still alive. Alot of wolf attacks have been feed on and the rancher has to put that animal down. The lucky ones die fast....you show me a dog or coyote that does that

 

[ZigZagZeke]

The point is that domestic dogs are more dangerous to humans than wolves. And I would dare say that feral dogs can cause as much damage or more, to livestock and wildlife than wolves and coyotes.

As for whether the CDC/et. al. provide good stats - it is a logical fallacy to attack the messenger instead of the message, just because you don't like what is said.

The CDC can no longer be trusted, and we KNOW that the HSUS lies and violates the law regularly.