Oregon wolf situation

[Tlock]

Here's the list of wolf packs just in two NE Oregon counties (from the ODFW website), many of them in areas where I'd been hunting since 1990.

• Umatilla County (Horseshoe, North Emily, Ruckel Ridge, Touchet, Ukiah)
• Union County (Balloon Tree, Clark Creek, Five Points, Noregaard, OR86, OR96, OR114, Ruckel Ridge)

Source: https://www.dfw.state.or.us/wolves/Packs/index.asp

Here's a link to the map, although as of December 2021:

https://www.dfw.state.or.us/wolves/docs/Wolf_Use_Map_221231_No%20Labels.pdf

A collared wolf down by aspen lake was just killed a few days ago and the collar was dropped in klamath lake....someone finally had enough of it killing livestock

 

[Xaevian]

A collared wolf down by aspen lake was just killed a few days ago and the collar was dropped in klamath lake....someone finally had enough of it killing livestock

 

[Unicykle]

By reintroducing wolves isn't that us managing things? If nature was in was controlled wouldn't they just come back by themselves? Your last sentence makes no sense

We exterminated them, nature didn't remove them and they have a viable place in the food chain. I've never understood the everything is ours to take and nothing else matters. Doesn't the ODFW or gov have a program in place to reimburse the farmers for their losses When an animal in the endangered species list kill a couple of their cattle? I've got several farmers that I talked to down in Lake County and usually there's a troublesome bear too but I've never heard them ever mention wolves I know those farmers aren't rich and it's usually just a barely break even game and losing cattle is hard on them but the wolves the cougars the bears the coyotes they have a right to eat too and they're not shooting it from 375 yards I'd be fine with humans hunting year-round without a tag if they wanted to use a sharp stick and run it down.

 

[Tlock]

We exterminated them, nature didn't remove them and they have a viable place in the food chain. I've never understood the everything is ours to take and nothing else matters. Doesn't the ODFW or gov have a program in place to reimburse the farmers for their losses When an animal in the endangered species list kill a couple of their cattle? I've got several farmers that I talked to down in Lake County and usually there's a troublesome bear too but I've never heard them ever mention wolves I know those farmers aren't rich and it's usually just a barely break even game and losing cattle is hard on them but the wolves the cougars the bears the coyotes they have a right to eat too and they're not shooting it from 375 yards I'd be fine with humans hunting year-round without a tag if they wanted to use a sharp stick and run it down.

The guys in the klamath falls area are getting 525$ a head for cows being killed by wolves.

 

[156256Hunter]

Seems like some people certainly want wolves back because they were here before civilization. That's great, but for a lot of us wolves have already been "back" for quite a while. During that time they, along with other less than controlled predators like bears and cougars (and probably poachers), look to have had quite the material, negative impact on deer and elk numbers in certain regions of the state. Elk and deer were here before civilization too, right?

But there's not a good balance — way more predators and way fewer game compared to even 15 years ago. Yes it'd be nice to have bison and more moose in eastern oregon, but given the present conditions, fat chance.

Sometimes what these types of conversations boil down to, is that people who are unaffected by something such as wolf reintroduction are all for it (because they're in part of civilization where no wolves are or will be). On the other hand, people dealing first hand with many of the adverse effects, know there needs to be a better balance in Oregon.

This is why on occasion Ive spent my hunting $$$ in Idaho instead of Oregon, where there are wolves and elk, but the latter are more populous than in certain Oregon units because Idaho knows how to manage wildlife.

 

[Unicykle]

OK doing a quick Google search it appears there are 25 to 30,000 bears in Oregon but they are omnivores they are not only eating meat killing deer and elk. There are approximately 6000 cougar in Oregon. And the ODFW claims there are 175 wolves in Oregon. ODFW issued 526,361 controlled hunt applications in 2021 who do you think is having more of an effect on the animal populations?

 

[Howard1955]

Caroline Allen, 17 years old
January midnight between 1761 and 1781
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America


Four young ladies and two young men including Harry Mason were traveling back to the settlement after a quilting "frolic". Wolves attacked and all six climbed an oak tree. The branch on which Caroline Allen was standing broke off. She fell screaming to the ground where the hungry wolves quickly tore her to pieces and devoured her. Her sweetheart, Harry Mason, witnessed her demise and was so disturbed by it that he drank himself to death not long afterward. An eyewitness described the wolves as starving.


**********


Candice Berner, 32 years old
8 March 2010
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks_in_North_America


Berner, a teacher and avid jogger, was discovered dead along a road by snowmobilers, who found wolf tracks in the adjacent snow. The Alaska State Medical Examiner ruled that her death was caused by "multiple injuries due to animal mauling." A series of necropsies performed on wolves culled in the surrounding area shortly after the attack ruled out rabies, sickness, or wolf-dog hybridisation as being causes of the attack. The verified case was notable as being the first recorded fatal wolf attack in Alaska in which DNA evidence was gathered to confirm wolf involvement.

 

[JRuby]

You got a better chance of dieing visiting the windy city for a weekend than you do of dieing from a wolf attack in your lifetime.

 

[Member 66129]

If you think Oregon doesn't have a large population of wolves, you aren't paying attention. In my last 19 days of elk hunting(over two seasons + scouting) I saw wolves every single day. Over the last decade I've encountered them sporadically everywhere from Southern Oregon and the Willamette Valley through to Mt. Hood and Central/Eastern Oregon.

 

[Tlock]

OK doing a quick Google search it appears there are 25 to 30,000 bears in Oregon but they are omnivores they are not only eating meat killing deer and elk. There are approximately 6000 cougar in Oregon. And the ODFW claims there are 175 wolves in Oregon. ODFW issued 526,361 controlled hunt applications in 2021 who do you think is having more of an effect on the animal populations?

Are you saying hunters kill more than wolves, bears, coyotes, cougars and bobcats?

 

[Xaevian]

I'm more worried about CWD or zombie deer.

 

[156256Hunter]

OK doing a quick Google search it appears there are 25 to 30,000 bears in Oregon but they are omnivores they are not only eating meat killing deer and elk. There are approximately 6000 cougar in Oregon. And the ODFW claims there are 175 wolves in Oregon. ODFW issued 526,361 controlled hunt applications in 2021 who do you think is having more of an effect on the animal populations?

Few points here: first, black bears eat calf elk.

Second, "controlled hunt applications" aren't tags. The application #s are how many hunters apply to draw—not everyone gets a tag. For example, in a unit that in the 1980s used to be an over the counter rifle tag for any bull elk and trucks were bumper to bumper in that unit the night before opening day, ODFW now issues only up to 35 tags total. Three five. But over 2000 hunters apply for those tags.

Third, don't assume elk hunter success rate is anywhere close to 100%. If some of these Oregon units have 20% success rate, that's really good. For spike only bull hunts success is or was between 9 and 12%. (It's spike only for a limited number of hunters who didn't draw one of the 35 big bull tags).

Elk hunting is difficult to begin with, then if the population keeps dropping it only gets more difficult.

 

[Unicykle]

My stepdad is basically a professional hunter and he complains about all the predators. The bane of hunters is other hunters on two legs and four. Just seems like if the ODF numbers are even remotely close at 175 wolves The farmers that lose cattle are being reimbursed then there should be plenty of room in Oregon for Many times that number. They live by the cold rules of nature and we can stop by Safeway on the way home.

 

[American123]

What if?

Wolves have been here long before humans - like 700K years ago.

History and Distribution of The Gray Wolf in The Pacific Northwest – Wolves in The State of Oregon

And?

The lot my home sits on once belonged to a bunch of trees that lived on it. This type of "what was here first" thinking seems ridiculous.

Read the historical accounts of wolf attacks on humans to quickly and thoroughly understand why wolves were purposely hunted nearly to extinction. While I don't blame them for living as the carnivores they are, I can understand why frontiersman and settlers moving west killed them indiscriminately because of the real threat they posed to their families' livelihood and even their own lives.

 

[American123]

Well That's Bullshizzt ....LOL . complete opposite of the truth, as the Wolves did NOT eat and exterminate all the humans. If wolves are superior predators ??? , Then humans would be the ' animal ' the Overbearing Wolfs Government would be transplanting RFID chipped and collared humans into alien habituates, with forcing the majority of wolf population to hug and love us .
.

Your logic isn't making the point you're trying to make and it's just wrong. Humans (collectively) are at the top of the food chain as a species compared to other species because of our developed prefrontal cortex and opposable thumbs that have allowed us as a species to think, imagine, design, and implement equipment and advanced strategies to overcome the physical limitations that humans individually have compared to some wildlife.

It's important to stress that collectively, and with proper equipment Humans are at the top of the food chain, however, if you put a single human, naked with only what God gave him, in a cage fight against wolves, or lions, tigers, bears (oh my) - the human loses, and with lethal results.

As a species we are at the top of the food chain, individually, without the proper equipment and training, definitely not - there are plenty of animals that in that instance, would be eating a human.

 

[CLT65]

Reading through this thread has brought a question to my mind, one that would have been unthinkable even a couple decades ago, but seems increasingly more likely to be posed in the future. Should hunting be severely curtailed, eventually outlawed?

Like I said in a previous post, I don't hunt, haven't in over 20 years. Nothing against it, it's just not for me, not something I enjoy. I have life-long friends who live to hunt, so I have no personal problem with it, but it seems that more and more it's really looked down upon, by people who otherwise seem normal, not just extremist animal-rights type. It's even looked down on by a certain segment of gun culture; they see hunters as "stupid old fudds".

"The wolves have more right to hunt than humans" - I'm not sure what that even means, or by what standard one can measure "wolf rights". This is a statement that sounds good, but has no real meaning or foundation, other than "They were here first", another statement that doesn't really mean much. So what if "they" were? Why? I love nature and seeing animals in the wild, and try to have an open mind about wildlife management, but it has to be a bit deeper and more scientific than that.

I don't have a strong opinion, especially when it comes to wildlife management, how wolves fit in or where they belong, how much game they kill, etc.. I don't know much about all that. I listen to what my hunting friends say, but I don't claim to be any kind of expert.

So, is hunting outdated, immoral and archaic? Should we outlaw human hunting, and leave nature to take care of itself, or at least restrict it to the point that it's just a sport for the wealthy? It's just a sport nowadays anyhow; people don't need to hunt anymore, right?

No, I don't actually believe that, but there are plenty who do, so I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

 

[American123]

Reading through this thread has brought a question to my mind, one that would have been unthinkable even a couple decades ago, but seems increasingly more likely to be posed in the future. Should hunting be severely curtailed, eventually outlawed?

Like I said in a previous post, I don't hunt, haven't in over 20 years. Nothing against it, it's just not for me, not something I enjoy. I have life-long friends who live to hunt, so I have no personal problem with it, but it seems that more and more it's really looked down upon, by people who otherwise seem normal, not just extremist animal-rights type. It's even looked down on by a certain segment of gun culture; they see hunters as "stupid old fudds".

"The wolves have more right to hunt than humans" - I'm not sure what that even means, or by what standard one can measure "wolf rights". This is a statement that sounds good, but has no real meaning or foundation, other than "They were here first", another statement that doesn't really mean much. So what if "they" were? Why? I love nature and seeing animals in the wild, and try to have an open mind about wildlife management, but it has to be a bit deeper and more scientific than that.

I don't have a strong opinion, especially when it comes to wildlife management, how wolves fit in or where they belong, how much game they kill, etc.. I don't know much about all that. I listen to what my hunting friends say, but I don't claim to be any kind of expert.

So, is hunting outdated, immoral and archaic? Should we outlaw human hunting, and leave nature to take care of itself, or at least restrict it to the point that it's just a sport for the wealthy? It's just a sport nowadays anyhow; people don't need to hunt anymore, right?

No, I don't actually believe that, but there are plenty who do, so I'm just throwing it out there as food for thought.

People that view hunting with negative thoughts see themselves as virtuous, but it's hunters who have more respect for animals. Harvesting an animal and seeing it going from living and breathing to food on your table takes a level of maturity and respect that most city folk lack. Being entirely removed from the process and being able to just non-chalantly buy processed meat at the store is what is worthy of disdain.

I got into a debate with my sister in law one time about hunting. She was opposed because "it was making the animals suffer." I drove a dump truck sized hole through her dumbass argument when I brought up how wolves tear apart their prey while they are still alive. Hunter making ethical shots/kills lead game to be dead quickly and without significant stress to the animal. Also, as we were about to sit down and eat steak, I brought up the hypocrisy of casually enjoying steak and yet having disdain for hunters. I started to explain the process of how cattle are butchered and that was when my father in law asked me to stop.

Hunting, getting food for your family by your own hand is as old as people. It has been a very short span of human existence that society has been developed to such an extent that hunting for sustenance wasn't a necessary option, and it's really only in egalitarian societies that looking down on hunting is even feasible. Using WWII as an example where there were very few dogs and cats wandering around in cities which were previously very "civilized." Clearly "hunting" is only bad when people are not hungry and able to get plenty of food with little effort through modern society's food distribution network.

 

[The Heretic]

The "they were here first" debate was in response to posts about introducing wolves with the idea that they are/were not a native species in N America, when they indeed were. The evidence and historical record supports that.

The other aspect to that is that humans come along and upset the balance of natural predators and prey and then try to justify it by portraying wolves as some kind of unacceptable threat to humans.

 

[American123]

The "they were here first" debate was in response to posts about introducing wolves with the idea that they are/were not a native species in N America, when they indeed were. The evidence and historical record supports that.

The other aspect to that is that humans come along and upset the balance of natural predators and prey and then try to justify it by portraying wolves as some kind of unacceptable threat to humans.

Thanks for clarifying

I believe history already showed how humans and wolves coexist - wolves kill livestock and humans when given the opportunity. Humans in turn kill wolves and keep killing them because it made life easier/safer.

I would suggest that the environmental benefit that wolves have in an area is entirely replaced by modern day legalized and measured hunting methods, with the caveat that wolves do it better.

 

[156256Hunter]

Using the "they were here first" logic, would also apply to non native Americans, now living where native Americans used to hunt or live.

If you're not native to here, does that mean you should give up your house in the woods and move to Europe?

I'm not anti wolf per se, but I am anti Oregon wolf (non)management because in certain parts of the state it's had disastrous effects, including on local economies and game animal populations.

And it has presumably or potentially impacted ODFW's budget. ODFW gets $$ from fishermen and hunters to "manage" game and non game species. Less money from hunters arguably means less ability to do that. Although by increasing license, application and tag fees, plus getting revenue from "premium hunt" tag applications, raffles and auctions, perhaps ODFW is offsetting hunter number loss with more money from fewer people.

Or as someone else suggested, maybe there's a goal to eliminate hunting, because we can just stop at the store for some of that fungible mystery meat, most of which is full of all kinds of hormones and whatever else (yum). If that's the goal, then in certain parts of the state, Oregon is making great strides towards that fulfilling goal.