no visible catalyst. the log may not hit the fan all at once.

[Gunner3456]

And, does Russia think their outdated crap will stop an attack by the US or Israel on Syria?

I appreciate them letting us know how Syria is armed, so that they can be attacked another way if necessary.

Those fkn Russians. If they'd ever once decide to get along, things would be better for everyone but no, they have to behave like the idiot on the block.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

OK this was a stupid ,mildly entertaining movie

Hardwired movie Trailer 2009 - YouTube

But the thing that struck me was when the guy started talking about how the "corporations" bailed out the US government after the second bankruptcy.

Again the movie wasn't great but made all this talk really scary.

You think your government doesn't care about you?
Wait till the corporations own the US and not just run it as they do now.

I do appreciate the links provided.I don't go looking for them cause they just boil my blood.

The Corporatist slight of hand is wearing a little thin. They keep misdirecting our attention to people who are “stealing” benefits from you and me, in the hope that we will not notice that executive pay and corporate profits have far outstripped any increase in entitlements. They hope that we won’t notice that the tax cuts they’ve been given have financed capital projects to create facilities in foreign countries that result in the best paying jobs in the US being exported to foreign cheap labor markets. They hope we won’t notice that “fair trade” measures, far from benefitting consumers, simply make it easier and more profitable to import the goods manufactured with cheap labor in foreign countries.

The result was predictable, and it is now becoming obvious. American consumers no longer have the incomes it takes to support the American economy. When the onset of this phenomenon was first recognized the answer was to simply let them borrow against the equity in their real estate and continue to spend as if it was real money. But that didn’t solve the problem of declining incomes.

Even without the tax cuts that provide pocket change to the average citizen, and massive profits to corporations and richest individuals, sufficient tax revenue has not been available to support domestic infrastructure investments, benefit programs for citizens, and the wars required to support and protect corporate operations and investments abroad. The solution to this situation that produces the least immediate impact is to stop investing in infrastructure. Thus we are beginning to notice crumbling roads and bridges, dilapidated schools, and fees for nearly everything under the sun for which government is responsible (e.g. one now needs a fee permit to use the national forests for recreation).

We have now reached the point where our rapidly failing infrastructure must be addressed, and further cuts are very difficult to accomplish. There are three options left: Cut the military, increase taxes on the very rich and the corporations, or cut “entitlements”. The Corporatists have decided that the public can be convinced that “entitlements” are wasteful and prone to abuse. They can point to anecdotal evidence that such abuse does happen. They believe they can avoid raising their own taxes or cutting the military which defends their foreign investments by convincing Americans that everyone’s neighbor is a welfare queen, abusing the system. Of course, in order to do this they have to be willing to “recharacterize” the facts. The fact is that Social Security has its own funding system and has not contributed one penny to any deficit. If one assumes that the economy will eventually recover from our present woes in some reasonable measure, it can be shown actuarially to be likely to remain solvent for the foreseeable future. It is a program into which the beneficiaries pay over their entire working lifetime, and which, in a legal sense, they have “relied on to their detriment”, meaning that because it was promised to them in return for their contributions, they did not contribute toward some other option, as if Social Security didn’t exist. The Corporatists rely on the word “entitlement” to trigger a vision of a gift from the government to indigent citizens, for which they have done nothing. Social Security is not such a gift, but that doesn’t bother the Corporatists. They know that the casual voter doesn’t realize this, and is used to being lied to.

As to those programs which are gifts to indigent citizens, there are very real reasons for their existence. If we appreciate not living in Calcutta, we should be willing to contribute tax money to programs like Medicare and Welfare, that provide basic care and support for those among us who are sick, hungry, homeless, or destitute. It is a small price to pay to avoid living in a society dominated by suffering and squalor. The Corporatist answer to such conditions is the creation of gated communities, so that their lives are not impinged upon by dirty, smelly, noisy people who might steal some of their assets. Whether those are physical gates, or economic or social gates doesn’t matter.

No, in the Corporatist world, if one cannot afford to consume, if there is no profit in serving someone, then that person is extraneous and of no value to society. The Corporatists have discovered that Americans are predisposed to agree with that basic premise, as long as it is their neighbor who is extraneous, and not themselves. Americans are always hopeful, and can easily be convinced to count themsleves among the rich, or soon to be rich, if only their neighbor wasn’t stealing from them through government programs. Thus, Americans have been persuaded to lower taxes for the very rich and corporations to the point where there are not sufficient resources to fund the very programs the average citizen depends on, like schools, libraries, roads, etc. It is a sad state from which America needs to awaken. It’s time to raise taxes.

 

[Gunner3456]

The Corporatist slight of hand is wearing a little thin. They keep misdirecting our attention to people who are "stealing" benefits from you and me, in the hope that we will not notice that executive pay and corporate profits have far outstripped any increase in entitlements. They hope that we won't notice that the tax cuts they've been given have financed capital projects to create facilities in foreign countries that result in the best paying jobs in the US being exported to foreign cheap labor markets. They hope we won't notice that "fair trade" measures, far from benefitting consumers, simply make it easier and more profitable to import the goods manufactured with cheap labor in foreign countries.

The result was predictable, and it is now becoming obvious. American consumers no longer have the incomes it takes to support the American economy. When the onset of this phenomenon was first recognized the answer was to simply let them borrow against the equity in their real estate and continue to spend as if it was real money. But that didn't solve the problem of declining incomes.

Even without the tax cuts that provide pocket change to the average citizen, and massive profits to corporations and richest individuals, sufficient tax revenue has not been available to support domestic infrastructure investments, benefit programs for citizens, and the wars required to support and protect corporate operations and investments abroad. The solution to this situation that produces the least immediate impact is to stop investing in infrastructure. Thus we are beginning to notice crumbling roads and bridges, dilapidated schools, and fees for nearly everything under the sun for which government is responsible (e.g. one now needs a fee permit to use the national forests for recreation).

We have now reached the point where our rapidly failing infrastructure must be addressed, and further cuts are very difficult to accomplish. There are three options left: Cut the military, increase taxes on the very rich and the corporations, or cut "entitlements". The Corporatists have decided that the public can be convinced that "entitlements" are wasteful and prone to abuse. They can point to anecdotal evidence that such abuse does happen. They believe they can avoid raising their own taxes or cutting the military which defends their foreign investments by convincing Americans that everyone's neighbor is a welfare queen, abusing the system. Of course, in order to do this they have to be willing to "recharacterize" the facts. The fact is that Social Security has its own funding system and has not contributed one penny to any deficit. If one assumes that the economy will eventually recover from our present woes in some reasonable measure, it can be shown actuarially to be likely to remain solvent for the foreseeable future. It is a program into which the beneficiaries pay over their entire working lifetime, and which, in a legal sense, they have "relied on to their detriment", meaning that because it was promised to them in return for their contributions, they did not contribute toward some other option, as if Social Security didn't exist. The Corporatists rely on the word "entitlement" to trigger a vision of a gift from the government to indigent citizens, for which they have done nothing. Social Security is not such a gift, but that doesn't bother the Corporatists. They know that the casual voter doesn't realize this, and is used to being lied to.

As to those programs which are gifts to indigent citizens, there are very real reasons for their existence. If we appreciate not living in Calcutta, we should be willing to contribute tax money to programs like Medicare and Welfare, that provide basic care and support for those among us who are sick, hungry, homeless, or destitute. It is a small price to pay to avoid living in a society dominated by suffering and squalor. The Corporatist answer to such conditions is the creation of gated communities, so that their lives are not impinged upon by dirty, smelly, noisy people who might steal some of their assets. Whether those are physical gates, or economic or social gates doesn't matter.

No, in the Corporatist world, if one cannot afford to consume, if there is no profit in serving someone, then that person is extraneous and of no value to society. The Corporatists have discovered that Americans are predisposed to agree with that basic premise, as long as it is their neighbor who is extraneous, and not themselves. Americans are always hopeful, and can easily be convinced to count themsleves among the rich, or soon to be rich, if only their neighbor wasn't stealing from them through government programs. Thus, Americans have been persuaded to lower taxes for the very rich and corporations to the point where there are not sufficient resources to fund the very programs the average citizen depends on, like schools, libraries, roads, etc. It is a sad state from which America needs to awaken. It's time to raise taxes.

You need a couple of more glasses of that Kool-Aid.

We already have the highest corporate tax rate in the world and it's driving companies, and thus jobs, to other countries. The government is already consuming far more than if should and needs to cut way back.

If you want to raise taxes, how about the 47% of the people in this country who pay no income taxes at all. Shouldn't they contribute something?

That top "1%" of income producers already pays 40% of all income taxes which is more than the bottom 95% altogether pay!!! The top 5% of earners pay more than 1/2 of all income taxes!

Go ahead. Hate the job producers and drive them away. We've done a pretty good job of that in the past 15 years anyway.

Why don't you use your brilliance to come up with a way to entice all of those corporations to come back and do business here, and create jobs for American workers?

20 years ago there were 300,000 auto workers in Detroit, building cars. Today we have lost 90% of those jobs and there are only 30,000. Gm now builds cars in 35 countries including having two plants in China. Detroit is in ruins. Do you think that raising their taxes would help the middle class, or would it cause them to finish shutting down Detroit?

Detroit ruins:

LINK

 

[kenno]

Amazing; Locobob and Zig Zag are like 2 peas in a pod, 2 men sharing the same skin, 1 brother from the same mother!

GBR: Obama states that wealthy Americans should be expected to sacrifice more to fix unemployment

 

[Gunner3456]

Amazing; Locobob and Zig Zag are like 2 peas in a pod, 2 men sharing the same skin, 1 brother from the same mother!

GBR: Obama states that wealthy Americans should be expected to sacrifice more to fix unemployment

Obama's a 1%er. Maybe he'd like to kick in a few mil of his money instead of grabbing at mine.

 

[Burt Gummer]

The American populace is so separated from reality our owners and their puppets can do whatever they want, when they want. Some people are still complaining about the '700 billion dollar' bailout. What they don't know is that the private cartel of banksters, otherwise known as the 'Federal Reserve' is sending TRILLIONS of dollars overseas 'printed' out of thin air, backed by nothing except for the dollar's current standing as the global reserve currency. That will not last. Immediately upon any other significant country dumping the dollar, the dollar will be toast. We stopped Iraq and Libya from dumping the dollar with our bombs (that was the core reason, not 'war for oil'), but that won't work with China/Russia.

As you will see documented below, the Federal Reserve actually handed more than 16 trillion dollars in nearly interest-free money to the "too big to fail" banks between 2007 and 2010.

Have You Heard About The 16 Trillion Dollar Bailout The Federal Reserve Handed To The Too Big To Fail Banks?

 

[kenno]

Obama's a 1%er. Maybe he'd like to kick in a few mil of his money instead of grabbing at mine.

Here's how the NEW USA Works:
Tax payer Buys GM and Obama gives half to the Unions. Obama orders the Chevy Volt to be built and the tax payer buys them, then becuse no one wants a Volt Obama buys them with Tax Payer Money. Now the Volt is setting the world on fire, LITERALY and Obama/Chevy says "That's OK we'll buy all of them back! (with Tax Payer Dollars) so the Tax Payer has bought cars that are dangerous, and that no one ever wanted, 4 TIMES and they do not work! Just Like The Soviet Union!

 

[ZigZagZeke]

You need a couple of more glasses of that Kool-Aid.

We already have the highest corporate tax rate in the world and it's driving companies, and thus jobs, to other countries. The government is already consuming far more than if should and needs to cut way back.

Yep, and everybody else with those lower corporate tax rates is going broke even faster than we are.

If you want to raise taxes, how about the 47% of the people in this country who pay no income taxes at all. Shouldn't they contribute something?

How much should they pay? If there are 100 million of them and they each pay $1000 that's $100B. That's not even a drop in the bucket. The DoD alone spends 10 times that much every year.

That top "1%" of income producers already pays 40% of all income taxes which is more than the bottom 95% altogether pay!!! The top 5% of earners pay more than 1/2 of all income taxes!

I think that's patently unfair. They receive 42% of the income generated by the American economy. They should be paying more.

Go ahead. Hate the job producers and drive them away. We've done a pretty good job of that in the past 15 years anyway.

Job producers? If that's who they are they aren't doing very well at it. Let me tell you a secret. Jobs are produced when you and I open our wallets and buy something, not when some fat cat builds yet another estate in the Hamptons.

Why don't you use your brilliance to come up with a way to entice all of those corporations to come back and do business here, and create jobs for American workers?

They are doing that on their own. As soon as they have the average worker reduced to riding a bicycle to work and eating one bowl of rice a day they'll be back, and they are well on their way to accomplishing that goal. Folks like you are their unwitting accomplices.

20 years ago there were 300,000 auto workers in Detroit, building cars. Today we have lost 90% of those jobs and there are only 30,000. Gm now builds cars in 35 countries including having two plants in China. Detroit is in ruins. Do you think that raising their taxes would help the middle class, or would it cause them to finish shutting down Detroit?

Because your "job producers" took the tax breaks we gave them and produced those jobs in China, Mexico, and India, and yet you worship them while they laugh at you.

Detroit ruins:

LINK[/QUOTE]

 

[locobob]

Amazing; Locobob and Zig Zag are like 2 peas in a pod, 2 men sharing the same skin, 1 brother from the same mother!

GBR: Obama states that wealthy Americans should be expected to sacrifice more to fix unemployment

Two people on this site actually understand economics, horrors!
Yep, its all part of a big conspiracy Kenno... maybe you'd should ask to see our birth certificates....

 

[skydiver]

Our government...their government...doesn't matter.
There is so much going on behind the scenes that we are not even aware of.
We see only the tip of any given "iceberg".

 

[locobob]

Our government...their government...doesn't matter.
There is so much going on behind the scenes that we are not even aware of.
We see only the tip of any given "iceberg".

That is the scary new reality of globalism, multinational conglomerates and international finance have either bought off or outflanked representative national government.

 

[Grunwald]

And, does Russia think their outdated crap will stop an attack by the US or Israel on Syria?

I appreciate them letting us know how Syria is armed, so that they can be attacked another way if necessary.

Those fkn Russians. If they'd ever once decide to get along, things would be better for everyone but no, they have to behave like the idiot on the block.

And when did the West became the masters of the world? I'm no fan of the Russians but England nor US nor France have the high ground here when it comes to interfering in affairs of other counties.
I would also not dismiss their military equipment so easily. I recall about 10 or so years ago the US did military maneuvers with India and part of it was playing little war games. When it came to fighter planes the Indians kicked our arses and they were flying Russian made planes.

 

[Gunner3456]

And when did the West became the masters of the world? I'm no fan of the Russians but England nor US nor France have the high ground here when it comes to interfering in affairs of other counties.
I would also not dismiss their military equipment so easily. I recall about 10 or so years ago the US did military maneuvers with India and part of it was playing little war games. When it came to fighter planes the Indians kicked our arses and they were flying Russian made planes.

I'd like to see a reputable link to that. We have fighters they can't even see.

 

[Gunner3456]

Yep, and everybody else with those lower corporate tax rates is going broke even faster than we are.

Yeah, like China who we borrow money from.

Countries aren't going broke because of taxes. They are going broke because of socialism. Look at Greece. Their people are spoiled to death, but if the government tries to cut back spending, the people riot. They think they are "entitled" to non-existent money and Greece is belly up.

How much should they pay? If there are 100 million of them and they each pay $1000 that's $100B. That's not even a drop in the bucket. The DoD alone spends 10 times that much every year.

A family of 4 making $50k per year pays no income taxes. Asking them to pay just $1,000 is laughable.

I think that's patently unfair. They receive 42% of the income generated by the American economy. They should be paying more.

They receive it from "the American economy?" No, they receive it from hard work. The American economy is in the dumpster and they'd be more than happy to move their operations to China. Oh wait. They already are.

Job producers? If that's who they are they aren't doing very well at it. Let me tell you a secret. Jobs are produced when you and I open our wallets and buy something, not when some fat cat builds yet another estate in the Hamptons.

You're forgetting trade, which battle we consistently lose. Where are people going to get the money to open their wallets if they don't have a job? You're putting the cart before the horse.

They are doing that on their own. As soon as they have the average worker reduced to riding a bicycle to work and eating one bowl of rice a day they'll be back, and they are well on their way to accomplishing that goal. Folks like you are their unwitting accomplices.

You mean when the government has everyone reduced to riding a bicycle. If you have a job you don't have to ride a bicycle. If the government regulates and taxes your employer to the point of leaving, you'll be riding a bicycle.

Because your "job producers" took the tax breaks we gave them and produced those jobs in China, Mexico, and India, and yet you worship them while they laugh at you.

Detroit ruins:

LINK

[/QUOTE]

"Took the tax breaks and moved?" You mean moved to avoid our high taxes and regulations.

 

[Gunner3456]

Two people on this site actually understand economics, horrors!
Yep, its all part of a big conspiracy Kenno... maybe you'd should ask to see our birth certificates....

Yeah, like you two and the people running our government understand economics. That's why things are going to crash. I just hope you're a prepper because I'm not going to feed you when the "great experiment" fails.

 

[locobob]

Yeah, like you two and the people running our government understand economics. That's why things are going to crash. I just hope you're a prepper because I'm not going to feed you when the "great experiment" fails.

I understand that you cannot fix a demand problem with supply side solutions... seems to me you are the one who has bought into the "great experiment".

 

[Gunner3456]

I understand that you cannot fix a demand problem with supply side solutions... seems to me you are the one who has bought into the "great experiment".

No, the time when the middle class had it best was when we were the world's manufacturing king. We knew how to create new wealth, and it takes new wealth to grow and thrive. The factories were humming and the people were working, using the value-added concept of creating new wealth.

Now free trade, onerous regulations, and taxes have driven much of that away and those were the taxpayers. The companies paid taxes and the payroll taxes rolled in.

It's gone, all of those great manufacturing centers are in ruins, it's not coming back, and we're going to crash.

 

[Just Jim]

 

[locobob]

No, the time when the middle class had it best was when we were the world's manufacturing king. We knew how to create new wealth, and it takes new wealth to grow and thrive. The factories were humming and the people were working, using the value-added concept of creating new wealth.

Now free trade, onerous regulations, and taxes have driven much of that away and those were the taxpayers. The companies paid taxes and the payroll taxes rolled in.

It's gone, all of those great manufacturing centers are in ruins, it's not coming back, and we're going to crash.

Well here's a few of my solutions:
Free trade - only with countries that have similar labor and environmental standards. If a country is a gross polluter and/or employs child, slave labor etc. then we add a tariff to the import of their goods. Why the **** are we playing by their rules... we should be making them play by ours.

What regulations are necessary get streamlined and we make them broader in scope, more difficult to change and less subject to micromanagement. For example CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) regs are unnecessary micromanaging. Solution = raise the gas tax instead, we accomplish the same goal, allow people to choose what they want to drive, increase road funding, and we stop subsidizing a pattern of behavior that is not sustainable in the long run. Yeah I don't want to pay more at the pump either but its high time we own up to the true costs of our lifestyle and stop acting like a bunch of spoiled babies.

Revamp the tax code and make it harder to continually tinker with. Get rid of most deductions and loopholes. Lower the corporate tax rate but make sure no one gets special deals. Raise the individual top marginal rate substantially. This will encourage corporations to make money here but discourage the looting of corporate profits by top executives. It also de-incentivises large concentrations of stagnant wealth which don't circulate back to the demand side of the economy.

Re-regulate the banks and Wall St. The financial system is supposed to be about connecting capital with productive uses, it should not be a casino.

Get tough on businesses that profit from illegal immigration: The arguments for illegal labor are the same ones made for slavery back in the 1800's.

Cut back on America's global military presence. It is not our job to be the worlds police force and we can't afford it.

Stop playing games with social programs. We can only have the programs we are willing to pay for with our current tax dollars. These programs need to be efficient. No more borrowing funds from these, no more "tax holidays" i.e. refusing to pay for them.

Institute a basic national healthcare system. Why should American business get shouldered with this responsibility? Everyone needs healthcare and everyone should pay. How about funding it with a national sales tax - that way the burden is most evenly spread. And no I'm not talking about paying for sex-changes and radical surgeries... just a basic level of care based upon what we are willing to pay for. Want more? Great, you can buy extra private medical coverage, pay out of pocket or whatever.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I don't expect you to like all of them but I think everyone can agree that what we are doing now is not working. If you want to poke holes in my ideas have at it.... but you better have an alternative suggestion and a rational for it. Labeling, name calling etc. is wholly unproductive and is not a valid form of argument.

 

[wp4]

Bretton Woods 2



End of story.